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Thread: the Buffett thingy is a distraction; the problem is corporate taxes

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    the Buffett thingy is a distraction; the problem is corporate taxes

    6 Rigged Rules Corporations Use to Dodge Taxes
    AT&T, Boeing, Citigroup, Duke Energy and Ford reported more than $20 billion of US pre-tax income last year, but didn't pay any federal income taxes. Here's why.

    The following article first appeared on the Web site of The Nation. For more great content from the Nation, sign up for its e-mail newsletters here.

    As American families rush to complete their annual tax returns, many will have paid more in federal income taxes than some of America’s largest and most profitable corporations. AT&T, Boeing, Citigroup, Duke Energy and Ford collectively reported more than $20 billion of US pre-tax income last year, yet none of them paid a dime in federal income taxes. Instead, they claimed refunds of more than $1.3 billion from the IRS. 

    These corporations are not alone in turning tax dodging into a competitive sport. Last year, US corporations paid an effective tax rate of just 12.1 percent, the lowest level in the last forty years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Sixty years ago, when Republican President Dwight Eisenhower lived in the White House, corporations paid 32 percent of federal government’s tax receipts; last year they paid 9 percent.

    Below are six examples of how large corporations have rigged the tax rules to ensure that those who have the most get to amass even more, at the expense of everyone else. Figuring out how to unrig them is not rocket science, but it will require strong public pressure on lawmakers to ensure that America’s most prosperous corporations pay their fair share.

    Boeing’s Double Dip

    In each of the past nine years, Boeing has reported at least $1 billion in pre-tax profits, yet in only one did it pay any US corporate income taxes. In fact, the aerospace giant got so much money in tax subsidies that it had an effective tax rate of -7.8 percent during this period.

    One of the main reasons Boeing has avoided the taxman is that the rest of us subsidize their research and development spending. Last year this amounted to $137 million. Congress first passed the research and experimentation tax credit during the 1981 recession, intending to provide a temporary boost to America’s sagging economy. Though it has expired for short periods over the years, it has been renewed thirteen times, and Congress is presently considering making the tax credit permanent.

    Government investment in basic research and development can be valuable, but the way the current tax credit is structured, much of the support goes to large well-resourced high-tech firms like Boeing that would have conducted the research anyway as a part of maintaining a vibrant business.

    What’s particularly disturbing about the Boeing subsidies, however, is that the company already bills the Pentagon for research costs. The third largest defense contractor, Boeing has landed more than $54 billion in government contracts in the past nine years. So essentially, taxpayers are paying for the company’s research—twice.

    GE’s Tax-Free Offshore Profits

    General Electric employs 975 people to mine the tax code for every possible deduction. One of their IRS returns ran an awe-inspiring 57,000 pages. As a result, GE paid an effective tax rate of just 2.3 percent on more than $81 billionof US income over the last decade.

    One of GE’s most lucrative tax breaks is dubbed “the active financing exception.” Under US tax law income earned from interest anywhere in the world is taxable in the United States. That is because interest is consider a “passive business activity” that is easily transferred from country to country. The active financing exception allows corporation that establish captive foreign finance subsidiaries to exclude interest they earn offshore from their US taxes. The 1997 subsidy was meant as a temporary measure to help US banks and manufacturers compete internationally.

    General Electric’s lobbyists, who led the fight to create the subsidy, have made sure the “temporary” part was just a joke. Congress has renewed the exemption multiple times over the last fifteen years. And in the meantime, active financing has allowed GE to legally shift much of its US profits to overseas jurisdictions with lower taxes.

    The active financing exception is one of sixty tax breaks, known as “tax extenders,” that expired last year. Congress is actively considering reauthorizing them, even while they also consider dramatic cuts to social programs. 

    AIG’s Stealth Bailout

    In 2008, American International Group’s reckless uncovered bets helped lead the global economy to the brink of collapse. Taxpayers bailed out the rogue insurer to the tune of $182 billion.

    Less well-known is a perk the US Treasury made available to AIG that allowed the company to retain its losses to offset against future profits. Tapping these tax losses allowed AIG to report more than $17 billion in tax-free profits in 2011, a move Elizabeth Warren, who chaired the TARP oversight panel, labeled a “stealth bailout.” “When the government bailed out AIG, it should not have allowed the failed insurance giant to duck taxes for years to come,” wrote Warren in a statement co-signed by three other panel members.

    “This corporate tax break transfers public money to AIG’s private shareholders and inflates executive pay at AIG—both at the public’s expense,” added Damon Silvers, another member of the oversight panel. At least four of the executives who stand to benefit financially from the tax break were leading the company at the time of the massive failure.

    Apple and Facebook’s Double Books

    Under current rules, companies can show shareholders and the IRS two different sets of books. In financial statements to shareholders, they’re allowed to estimate the value for their executives’ stock options at the time they’re granted. But when it comes to paying their taxes, they can lower their bill by deducting the full value of the options on the day executives cash them in, which is often a much higher figure. This loophole saved Apple $1.5 billion on its taxes between 2008–10, according to Citizens for Tax Justice, boosting its bottom line and its executive bonuses.

    When Facebook becomes a public company later this year, the stock option deduction will save it an estimated $3 billion on taxes, including an immediate $500 million IRS refund of the taxes it has paid during the last two years.

    The Ending Excessive Corporate Deductions for Stock Options Act (S. 1375) and the Cut Unjustified Tax Loopholes Act (S. 2075), both introduced by Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) would close this loophole and limit companies to a tax deduction no greater than the expense they report to shareholders.

    Pfizer Heaves Domestic Profits Overseas

    Pfizer is the largest drug company in the world. It generates 40 percent of its sales in the largest and most lucrative drug market—the United States. And yet Pfizer has reported losses in the US in each of the last four years.

    Pfizer’s tax disclosures offer some clues to how the company achieves this puzzling result. First, it operates eighty subsidiaries in offshore tax havens. Second, Pfizer’s 2011 non-US tax rate was a low 14.7 percent, suggesting that they booked a significant portion of overseas profits in tax havens like Luxembourg, Ireland and Jersey, places where Pfizer has at least ten subsidiaries each.

    Here’s how these strategies work. A company like Pfizer conducts the bulk of its product and research development in the United States. This work is done by scientists, many of whom were educated in US schools, often using basic research that was funded by US taxpayers. The corporation then takes the patents earned by its US labs and registers them in nations that impose little or no taxes on income from patent royalties. When Pfizer sells a pill, it charges a lot for the use of the patent, telling the IRS that without the intellectual property, the product would be virtually worthless. By doing this, Pfizer transfers much of their profits to the tax haven, while retaining much of the costs of research, advertising and management in the United States. Such shenanigans cost the US Treasury an estimated $100 billion a year.

    A pending bill, the Stop Tax Haven Abuse Act, would require that offshore subsidiaries managed from the United States and often little more than a post office box and a brass nameplate be treated as US entities for tax purposes.

    Bechtel’s “Mini” Masquerade

    Though Bechtel is the world’s largest telecommunications, engineering and construction firm (with $32.9 billion in revenue and 52,700 employees), in terms of corporate structure it is one of America’s largest “small businesses.” That’s because the giant corporation takes advantage of a 1958 law intended to extend limited liability protection to owners of small, family-owned businesses. Companies that qualify for this law’s “S Corporation” status do not have to pay federal corporate income taxes. Instead the company’s profits are reported as personal income by individual owners. While the Bechtel empire was hardly the intended beneficiary, their firm technically qualifies for the S Corporation status because it is family run and has less than 100 shareholders.

    At the time the law was enacted, the wide differential between top corporate tax rates (52 percent) and top individual rates (91 percent) was a disincentive for gaming the system to dodge taxes. Fast forward half a century and top tax rates have collapsed to only 35 percent for corporations and individuals, erasing the previous disincentive for big corporations to change their business status. By incorporating as an S Corporation, enormous businesses like Bechtel pay just individual taxes, rather than having their corporation pay taxes on corporate profits and shareholders pay taxes on their dividends.

    S Corporations, and other businesses where income is taxed only at the individual level, have become the new tax haven, where large businesses have fled to avoid US corporate income taxes. In 2008, more than 14,000 S Corporation tax returns were filed by firms with more than $50 million in revenue, according to the IRS. These 14,000 firms, with an average profit of $6.4 million each, collectively reported 29 percent of the total profit on nearly 4 million S Corporation tax returns. Preserving S Corporation status for real small businesses can help level the playing field, but closing the loophole that allows giant multinational corporations to avoid the corporate taxes that their peers have to pay is key to bringing more fairness to the tax code and more funds into public coffers.

    As the 99% Spring unfolds, restoring fairness to our tax code must be at the center of the debate. As it stands, our tax system rewards those at the top, robbing the rest of us of the public money we need to transform the economy from one that works for the 1 percent to one that works for the 100 percent.
    http://www.alternet.org/economy/1550...s/?page=entire

  2. #2
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    If we got rid of corporate taxes we would create tons of jobs. Companies wouldn't be leaving the country since it would eliminate a lot of the extra cost of doing business here.

  3. #3
    Agreed. There should be no corporate taxes. Tax everything at the individual level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
    If we got rid of corporate taxes we would create tons of jobs. Companies wouldn't be leaving the country since it would eliminate a lot of the extra cost of doing business here.
    Bull$#@!. They would still be outsourcing jobs left and right. So the beneficiaries are just those high up and shareholders.

  5. #5
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    When I woke up this morning my first thought was, "if only we got $#@!ing corporate taxes right that would fix all our problems".

  6. #6
    shareholders
    Shareholders and the class of Russian and Chinese peasants who were utterly wiped out by the communists are the closest that the workers have ever come to owning the implements of production.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaduroUTMB View Post
    Shareholders and the class of Russian and Chinese peasants who were utterly wiped out by the communists are the closest that the workers have ever come to owning the implements of production.
    Oh, I'm not saying shareholders benefiting is a negative, just that it doesn't help keep business in house.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Foosters Galore View Post
    Oh, I'm not saying shareholders benefiting is a negative, just that it doesn't help keep business in house.
    HAL would still be a Us based company if there were no corporate taxes AFAIK. Same goes for many, many others.

  9. #9
    The Dutch Sandwich....

  10. #10
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    take a look at brazilian and chinese tax structures and come on back and decide if outsourcing is merely due to US punitive tax structures.

    the end answer is always: cost of labor and how do we do business in this economy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by hayden_horn View Post
    take a look at brazilian and chinese tax structures and come on back and decide if outsourcing is merely due to US punitive tax structures.

    the end answer is always: cost of labor and how do we do business in this economy.
    We can't stop companies from outsourcing, but we can keep their corporate hqs (and their jobs) in the US.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    We can't stop companies from outsourcing, but we can keep their corporate hqs (and their jobs) in the US.
    What is that, like a 100 jobs?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Foosters Galore View Post
    What is that, like a 100 jobs?
    It's the highest paying jobs in the company, and the tax revenue that comes with that.

    But you're right, let's chase them off, too.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    It's the highest paying jobs in the company, and the tax revenue that comes with that.

    But you're right, let's chase them off, too.
    You are aware that the highest paying of these jobs are still made up of American citizens, regardless of where corporate headquarters are. They still pay income taxes.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Foosters Galore View Post
    You are aware that the highest paying of these jobs are still made up of American citizens, regardless of where corporate headquarters are. They still pay income taxes.
    Not in all cases, for sure. We can either keep the jobs we can control, or we can lose most of them. You pick.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    Not in all cases, for sure. We can either keep the jobs we can control, or we can lose most of them. You pick.
    You're telling me there are examples of US corporations deciding to move their headquarters overseas in order to increase profits while at the same time agreeing to outsource their own executive level jobs and the pay that comes with it, leaving them unemployed?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Foosters Galore View Post
    You're telling me there are examples of US corporations deciding to move their headquarters overseas in order to increase profits while at the same time agreeing to outsource their own executive level jobs and the pay that comes with it, leaving them unemployed?
    No, I'm telling you that real people work in HAL's Dubai HQ. Some pay taxes in America, some don't. Would you rather have all that tax revenue or little to none of it?

    We can't control outsourcing. We can control this.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    No, I'm telling you that real people work in HAL's Dubai HQ. Some pay taxes in America, some don't. Would you rather have all that tax revenue or little to none of it?

    We can't control outsourcing. We can control this.
    Would I rather have the income tax from a few non-essential personnel or the corporate taxes from the vast majority of companies that remain in the US?

    I'll take the latter.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Foosters Galore View Post
    Would I rather have the income tax from a few non-essential personnel or the corporate taxes from the vast majority of companies that remain in the US?

    I'll take the latter.
    Soon you'll get neither, except for the revenue they generate in our country. Folks like you are why companies are fleeing our shores.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    Soon you'll get neither, except for the revenue they generate in our country. Folks like you are why companies are fleeing our shores.
    It's curious that companies are fleeing our shores when our effective corporate tax rates are the lowest they've been in decades. What was stopping them all this time? Also, your claim implies that all or a vast majority of US companies will soon be leaving, rendering us without any taxable base. That is beyond laughable. Look, you want to argue for lower corporate tax rates, fine. But don't use an increase in jobs and the personal income taxes that come with that as a reason.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Foosters Galore View Post
    It's curious that companies are fleeing our shores when our effective corporate tax rates are the lowest they've been in decades.
    And they're still higher than most of the world.

    What was stopping them all this time?
    Technology has made it easier to do this and stay connected for global corporations.

    Also, your claim implies that all or a vast majority of US companies will soon be leaving, rendering us without any taxable base. That is beyond laughable. Look, you want to argue for lower corporate tax rates, fine. But don't use an increase in jobs and the personal income taxes that come with that as a reason.
    I think more and more will leave if we keep having high corporate tax rates. You pick.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    We can't stop companies from outsourcing, but we can keep their corporate hqs (and their jobs) in the US.
    how? (hint: answer is not lower corp tax rates)

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by hayden_horn View Post
    how? (hint: answer is not lower corp tax rates)
    For companies like HAL, it is. Not saying it's a cure-all, but it's a start.

    Tax dividends at ordinary income rates for the people who receive them and get rid of corporate taxes.

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    another hint: other countries build their tax structures around how much you plan to sell to them. want to BRIC? gotta play by BRIC rules. and yet corps do. why? because it's a big market. what market is also big? ours. just saying.

    labor is a key, in my opinion, to doing business in large markets. want to sell here? hire here. that's what we are competing with.

  25. #25
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    last hint: you can't even sell into brazil without horrifying tariffs unless a certain percentage of your production base is there.

    lastest hint: this does not apply to HAL. it's to a greater point. but please continue to base your analysis on one company. it's cute.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by hayden_horn View Post
    want to sell here? hire here. that's what we are competing with.
    You seriously think our NAFTA loving politicians have the stomach for trade barriers? You're funny.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    You seriously think our NAFTA loving politicians have the stomach for trade barriers? You're funny.
    no, i don't. i'm merely pointing out that outsourcing to BRIC nations is basically standard policy. why?

    1) the labor is less expensive.
    2) it must happen if a company wants to sell to BRIC
    3) america has a very free trade sort of policy - which $#@!s us in a competitive world economy as far as labor goes
    4) we really cannot hope to compete on a labor level until we fix this somehow (doesn't mean tariffs - i don't know what it means, but, simply put, without something in place, jobs are $#@!ing hopping overseas, even to EUROPE)
    5) corp tax rates have very little to do with this, as far as a US market. there are things that can be effected to mitigate that. those things are not in place. corps offshoring have been blaming tax rates when in reality, the US has not been properly leveraging its market. in reality, our corporate tax rates are NOT the reason why jobs are fleeing. it's labor. get with the $#@!ing program and realize this. corps look to the bottom line. BRIC is cheaper. not only that, but to sell to these developing economies, local labor goes a long $#@!ing way. focus on the real prize, and stop looking at the $#@!ing sideshow.

  28. #28
    As far as outsourced labor goes, I agree with you. What I'm getting at is we can either keep the corporate hqs here, or we can lose them, too (we've already lost the outsourced labor). And if we can get rid of corporate taxes but tax dividends as ordinary income, I would bet our tax revenues would go up. Sounds like a win/win to me.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foosters Galore View Post
    Bull$#@!. They would still be outsourcing jobs left and right. So the beneficiaries are just those high up and shareholders.
    Not much value added in telemarketing/help desk jobs. India, Philippines can have them. Production and cash will come back home to the US. Plus companies based in other higher taxed countries will put operations here.

    Everyone with an IRA is a shareholder. Booming stock market is just what workers need.
    Last edited by Dolemite; 04-21-2012 at 08:53 AM.

  30. #30
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    Shouldn't the gov't just take over these large companies? THat way they could dictate outsourcing, exec pay, etc.

    I mean, what could go wrong?

  31. #31
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    The claim that an effective 15% corporate tax rate is motivating outsourcing all by itself doesn't pass my smell test. Big corporations can take a loss one year and spread it out over multiple years, effectively paying far less in taxes than small businesses.

    Besides, the motivation for outsourcing is lies solely in the differential between third world salary expectations and ours. A 15% tax rate is a very weak motivator compared to replacing one American at $125,000 a year with a team of several Indians or Chinese at $60,000 a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    No, I'm telling you that real people work in HAL's Dubai HQ. Some pay taxes in America, some don't. Would you rather have all that tax revenue or little to none of it?

    We can't control outsourcing. We can control this.
    They don't pay taxes up to like 90000 dollars of personal income. Hmm. Seems like a lot of good federal tax dollars if we can keep the in the states.....

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Chewbacca View Post
    HAL would still be a Us based company if there were no corporate taxes AFAIK. Same goes for many, many others.
    Halliburton was probably a poor example to make your point. They had other reasons to evade US laws and ultimately leave the country.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in595214.shtml

  34. #34
    asshat Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Pepper Brooks's Avatar
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    we have a 1.5 trillion dollar year over year problem, and all the statist morons are coming up with a few billion per year in revenue solutions. just go sit in the corner until the thing collapses because your solutions are never going to make a dent in the problem. the problem is on the spending side above all else. fix that and maybe we can talk about some extra revenue making an impact on the debt reduction side. until then just stfu because you cannot even come within making a 20% dent in the deficit for even one year with your proposed revenue streams.

  35. #35
    asshat Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore grows his own roses Foosters Galore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepper Brooks View Post
    we have a 1.5 trillion dollar year over year problem, and all the statist morons are coming up with a few billion per year in revenue solutions. just go sit in the corner until the thing collapses because your solutions are never going to make a dent in the problem. the problem is on the spending side above all else. fix that and maybe we can talk about some extra revenue making an impact on the debt reduction side. until then just stfu because you cannot even come within making a 20% dent in the deficit for even one year with your proposed revenue streams.
    Ok.....

  36. #36
    asshat Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses Dolemite grows his own roses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepper Brooks View Post
    we have a 1.5 trillion dollar year over year problem, and all the statist morons are coming up with a few billion per year in revenue solutions. just go sit in the corner until the thing collapses because your solutions are never going to make a dent in the problem. the problem is on the spending side above all else. fix that and maybe we can talk about some extra revenue making an impact on the debt reduction side. until then just stfu because you cannot even come within making a 20% dent in the deficit for even one year with your proposed revenue streams.
    It's actually much worst than 1.5 T. The graph posted earlier showing that 40% of revenue comes from FICA. That's all borrowed too. I didn't realize it was so much of the "revenue" we get. That means we must be borrowing close to $2.5T a year. It's such a big number that it's almost beyond comprehension.

  37. #37
    asshat El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. El Guapo's Avatar
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    Articles like that posted by the OP depress me, because financially illiterate liberals like Gil Bang take this crap and run with it without knowing a flying $#@! what they're talking about.

    I wish I had more time to fully address this, but briefly, here goes.

    R&D costs are expensed as incurred basically for two reasons - to encourage companies to do it, and because like any other business expenditure the alternative is capitalization and depreciation over time. If you require it to be capitalized and depreciated, you add huge levels of headache, cost, and complexity to the whole system due to the inherent uncertainty of the benefits of R&D. To put it in terms even a liberal might possibly understand, imagine R&D costs are to a business like frivolous lawsuits are to a maggot attorney. You have to throw a lot of crap against the wall before you find the one that sticks. Tell me, how are you going to account for the crap that slides off? Do you hold on to those expenses until you hit the lottery jackpot and then deduct it all from that? Because that's basically your alternative if you don't expense R&D. For how many years do you depreciate a patent that may very likely be rendered obsolete in six months when Apple comes out with the next iPhone? How do you capitalize the costs of developing a drug that the FDA doesn't approve? You want to bitch about expensing R&D costs, fine, then WHAT ARE YOUR ALTERNATIVES, SMART GUY??? And be prepared to suffer the consequence because all the cool gadgetry we now enjoy will be gone, because the tech industry as we know it wouldn't exist today if it weren't for this R&D rule.

    Don't know enough about offshore interest to comment. Therefore, unlike the fool who wrote this article, I won't.

    The so-called "AIG Stealth Bailout" is nothing more than simple tax loss carry-forwards that have been around for decades. It's not "less well-known" to anybody with a financial brain but by golly let's smear the AIG stain all over it so liberal idiots can infer some non-existent nefarious special interest loophole in their never-ending quest to incite the masses against corporations.

    The so-called "double books" with respect to the stock option thing goes back to simple GAAP accrual vs. Tax cash basis accounting. For the most part, the tax code doesn't require you to pay taxes on income that you haven't yet realized. Until you pay those options, you haven't realized the expense. There are hundreds if not thousands of benign examples where GAAP accounting, in an effort to match expenses associated with the income produced by those expenses in the same accounting year differs from what the tax code allows in the calculation of taxable income. At the end of the day it's nothing more than a timing issue and is reflected on the books as deferred taxes, but again, by golly we're gonna pick out the one that most riles up the OWS morons and make an issue of it.

    I don't understand his point with the Pzifer thing. Seems to be intentionally confusing R&D with oversees profit.

    Didn't know Bechtel was a Sub-S. Interesting. But so the $#@! what? There are both good and bad reasons to be a Sub-S, especially for a company of that size. It's their call, not mine. If it works for them, more power to 'em.
    Last edited by El Guapo; 04-22-2012 at 01:54 PM.

  38. #38
    asshat ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. ndawg can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night.
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    I don't know how you could possibly NOT account for R&D as a tax deferred investment. If you generate $1,000,000 in revenue and reinvest $200,000 on R&D, then you should be taxed on $800,000. If that R&D yields a return, then the profits you earn from the investment ought to be taxed.

    I am not an accountant, however. And I may be totally misunderstanding the discussion.
    Last edited by ndawg; 04-22-2012 at 02:21 PM.

  39. #39
    asshat Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Emoryoid's Avatar
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    Corporations just pass as much of cost of their taxes onto us, the consumers, in the form of higher prices for goods and services. So higher corporate taxes are just an indirect higher tax on the people. Take oil companies as an example. If we up the taxes on them, they will just up the price we pay at the pump. Brilliant, just brilliant.

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ndawg View Post
    I don't know how you could possibly NOT account for R&D as a tax deferred investment. If you generate $1,000,000 in revenue and reinvest $200,000 on R&D, then you should be taxed on $800,000. If that R&D yields a return, then the profits you earn from the investment ought to be taxed.

    I am not an accountant, however. And I may be totally misunderstanding the discussion.
    you've basically just said it should be expensed (iow, credited), after saying it should be deferred (iow, capitalized).




    Quote Originally Posted by Emoryoid View Post
    Corporations just pass as much of cost of their taxes onto us, the consumers, in the form of higher prices for goods and services. So higher corporate taxes are just an indirect higher tax on the people. Take oil companies as an example. If we up the taxes on them, they will just up the price we pay at the pump. Brilliant, just brilliant.
    i've seen econometric work stating that overseas investors, who might otherwise escape US taxes, are the only people pulled into the equation by corporate taxes.

    then again, corporate taxes are a giant jobs program. WPA for CPAs.
    Last edited by elfenix; 04-24-2012 at 03:31 PM.

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