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How do you feel about monopolies and cartels?Originally Posted by Fightin' Buck
My bad. Here in CO, if you're a public school teacher, you are almost certainly a member of the union.
Unions are social parasites. I'm not talking about teachers, I'm talking about the unions themselves. And all pensions should be eliminated. I'm equal opportunity that way. They just don't work and that's why they've virtually disappeared from the private sector.Also, honestly, did Walker offer to sit down with the unions and negotiate before he started calling them social parasites? Did walker offer to cut his own and legislative pensions?
You can't see what is wrong with teachers unions? Public education should be about improving student outcomes. Unions don't care about that. They want to improve teacher pensions and paychecks while protecting $#@!ty teachers from being fired. And they sure as hell want to protect their political capital that helps them accomplish the above. Public sector unions have become so powerful that they are on the verge of bankrupting many states across our country. You don't see the problem?Teachers unions are for the teachers. That is why they are called teacher's unions. Why is it so wrong for a group of people to associate, pool their voices, in order to negotiate higher pay, pensions, whatever?
We're going to have to do it. Cuts have to go across the board. Union members are not special. They get to share the pain. They dont' get to be exempt from it.Finally, are for cutting SS benefits? Because that would help get our fiscal house in order as well.
Just look at what Act10 did in Wisconsin. They saved over $500/student in districts where they opted to use Act10 and didn't lay off any teachers. I believe the districts that DIDN'T use Act10 laid teachers off.
ACT10 Wisconsin
WEA TrustWisconsin Teachers Union owns health insurance company - they 'collectively bargained' for
Topics: Political News and commentaries
It turns out that collective bargaining is one of the ways that the Teacher's Union is stealing from the taxpayers of Wisconsin. A union-mandated high-cost health plan that is owned by the union is milking the taxpayers by charging premiums that far exceed market norms, and are doing so with impunity or apparent recourse.
From the report by the folks at the Education Act Group Foundation and MacIver Institute:
Here are a few simple, startling facts for anyone concerned about the financial condition of Wisconsin public schools.
WEA Trust, an insurance company established and closely associated with the Wisconsin Education Association Council (WEAC), siphons millions of crucial dollars from K-12 schools and their students every year.
WEA Trust has grown very fat on public school dollars, with a net worth of $316 million and a team of 12 administrators all receiving compensation packages worth six figures per year.
Sadly, this insurance swindle is endorsed by state law. We at Education Action Group believe it's time for the citizens of Wisconsin to demand that their school boards be allowed to freely shop for less expensive employee health insurance.
That's particularly important in the current economic environment, when schools have been forced to lay off teachers, curtail student programs, privatize services and, in some districts, seek permission from voters to exceed their local revenue caps.
The problem is state law, which makes the identity of a school district's employee health insurance carrier a topic of collective bargaining. That means school boards and local school employee unions must agree on the insurance company that will provide health coverage.
So most unions have traditionally come to the negotiating table demanding expensive WEA Trust insurance coverage, and the strategy has been effective. About 64 percent of Wisconsin's 426 districts carry WEA Trust insurance, despite its prohibitive costs.
Why do union employees demand WEA Trust coverage?
WEA Trust offers what is commonly known as the "Cadillac" of school employee health coverage. It earned that moniker for two very good reasons - the health coverage is very thorough, and the cost to local school districts is very high.
WEAC pressures its local union officials to stick with WEA Trust. One district administrator told us about a meeting where everyone present, including union employees, agreed that a non-WEA health plan would be better for the district. He said state WEAC representatives were present and argued in favor of WEA Trust, just because it's the union's insurance brand.
[...] Collective bargaining also adversely affects some districts that aren't covered by WEA Trust. The best recent example is the Milwaukee school district, where the deficit-plagued schoolboard tried to save $48 million and avoid hundreds of teacher layoffs last spring by switching from an expensive health plan to a lower-cost plan. The union said no, and the layoffs occurred.
Many observers agree that the best answer is to allow or force all public school employees into the state employee health insurance plan, which they say would be less expensive than WEA Trust, at least for most schools. Part of that strategy would be to take the identity of the insurance carrier off the collective bargaining table, so school boards would be free to join the state plan without union approval.
Other observers would simply set school boards free to seek whatever insurance coverage is best for their districts, whether it's part of the state plan or not.
This isn't about punishing teachers, improving schools or saving money. It's about the Republicans trying to hurt the Democrats in the wallet. Walker isn't an evil mastermind. He's a ball-lick who does what he's told. I really can't believe how $#@!ing naive some of you are.
And why private schools perform better.Of course. That's why magnet schools perform so well. They get to pick their students.
Exactly! Furthermore, How are unions any different than lobbies representing businesses and corporations concerns and interests? You don't think they have governor's and legislator's ears?Teachers unions are for the teachers. That is why they are called teacher's unions. Why is it so wrong for a group of people to associate, pool their voices, in order to negotiate higher pay, pensions, whatever?
Was Walker's decision to cut corporate taxes while weaking unions done in a vacuum? No. He chose one special interest over another. Wisconsinites will have the opportunity to make a judgement on Walker's choice.
Last edited by YoLaDu; 04-19-2012 at 09:03 AM.
Businesses don't have the power to strike or cooperate to set prices. Let's imagine the Chamber of Commerce in New York City did the following:
1. Told each business to join or elseother businesses would not do business with them. Grocers wouldn't sell them food, gas stations wouldn't sell them gas, the electric company wouldn't sell them electricity.
2. Told each business what the wage scale was. If an employee or union had a different idea, tough.
2. Told them what prices to charge.
Suppose most busnesses support this Chamber of Commerce because profits are much higher than otherwise.
John Rockefeller did this sort of thing and it was outlawed. Businesses can't engage in monopolistic practices, establish cartels or price fix. Unions can.
Walker is a slime ball politician, using his governor platform to campaign for a national ticket, he is fundraising in Oklahoma and Illinois that is ALL you need to know about him.
But they can lobby and have 10000000x the money to do so.
Call it whatever you want, public sector unions are on track to bankrupt several states in the US. Something has to be done because the '$#@! you, pay me my money' route is going to sink us.
Are you actually comparing a teacher's union to a cartel?
Suppose this: Suppose teacher's were getting fired because they failed the star quarterback, or because they didn't support a certain school board candidate, or because parents complained because they gave too much homework. What defense would a teacher in a right to work state have against being fired for one of those reasons? School districts did this sort of thing all the time, and it wasn't outlawed.
Teacher's unions exist for that very reason. Yes, they are protecting their own, because they need protecting, since the legislatures aren't protecting them.
Tennhorn: from your link:Did Walker sit down and negotiate in good faith, logically, calmly, presenting the first option, explaining the need? Or did he immediately go public with the "social parasite" theme?Many observers agree that the best answer is to allow or force all public school employees into the state employee health insurance plan, which they say would be less expensive than WEA Trust, at least for most schools. Part of that strategy would be to take the identity of the insurance carrier off the collective bargaining table, so school boards would be free to join the state plan without union approval.
Other observers would simply set school boards free to seek whatever insurance coverage is best for their districts, whether it's part of the state plan or not.
And the second option, allowing local school boards to pick "whatever is best for the district". I would rather get my health care from a voodoo witch doctor than allow the gang of numbnuts that constitute my local school board pick my health insurance plan.
Yeah, bankrupt states didn't do anything to bring this on themselves, now did they? Plenty of blame to go around here, dude. laying it all on public employee unions is pure partisan politics. Nothing more.
The fault lies with politicians and unions who created and are perpetrating this mess. Even FDR thought public sector unions should not be allowed to collectively bargain. The group paying the bills (taxpayers) has no seat at that table. When two groups sit down and discuss how to split up someone else's money, it's no wonder things get out of hand. It's not their money.
You mean he's stopping the flow of the union monopoly/money-laundering of taxpayer cash via the democrats into said union's coffers
This is correct, but you forgot to add George Meany as an opponent of public sector unions.
Why should they be allowed to strangle the taxpayers?
Word up, Grampa. But he isn't doing it because it's wrong, or because it saves money for the state. he's doing it to $#@! the Democrats and help his Party and benefactors. He and the Republicans will find a different way to launder taxpayer money to their pockets (bailouts, tax incentives, wars). Trust me, the public is $#@!ed either way. The fact people can't see it shows how $#@!ing $#@!ty the school system is. At least you can claim senility. Sadly, the others on here can't. It's all about whose $#@!ing team wins.
I agree with all that, including the senility, but the topic here is Walker stopping the corrupt public sector union/democrat cabal from fleecing the Wisconsin taxpayers....not his motivation.
Wow, what a novel and original idea. I'm sure no ine has ever thought about using that strategy..
Damn, talk about moving the goalpost....wow, that was quick. Just happen to have it laying around, eh?
Is there an actual study that goes along with the pretty graph? Does that figure include money spent on sports, prom, and all the other $#@! that comes with school?
Also, since we are talking about teacher salaries, can you pull up something that compares teachers salaries?
edit: Nevermind on the study, I think I found it. Gotta go grade some papers, I'll get back to you later.
Unions are doing their job. It's the fault of politicians who are supposed to be answering to their consitutents and coming up with wise legilsation.
The duty of unions is to push for the benefit of their members.
I started in 2009. Magnolia ISD. I made north of 45k (2,500 or 3.000 of whcih was a coaching stipend). That pro-rates over 60k for a full work year. Starting out. In a job with no accountability for results, and that once you get in you are damn near impossible to fire. That's not a bad gig at all, and that's not $#@!ty pay. Most people who graduate from college start at less than that salary, and graduating with an education degree isn't exactly rigorous.
The people who are responsible for paying the bills have no seat at the table, and that is why collective bargaining should not be allowed for public sector unions. Even FDR understood this. It's a shame you do not. But if it makes you feel better to make the unions blameless, go for it. Doesn't change a damn thing.
Unions and pols sit down and decide how to divy up taxpayer dollars in return for votes and campaign contributions. If you don't see the inherent conflict of interest there, I can't help you.
OF course it does as a counter to the idea that we can only improve public education by throwing more money at the probelm. It's not about the money- it's about the students, and the parents. Only way you fix education is to fix the family structure in this country- everything else is lighting money on fire- which is my point.
I think there are some other good ideas. Most would involve a radical change in how we view education, though. They likely involve money, too, although i'd be perfectly fine for swapping out pensions for higher current salaries. Gotta be able to fire bad teachers, as well. The unions aren't the whole problem by any stretch, but they're a big part of the problem.
Probably, yeah. To me, the other side of the coin is what is one's ending salary after a long career. Probably less than a teacher.Most people who graduate from college start at less than that salary
i am speculating, but i would imagine public school teaching has less monetary advancement over one's career than any other profession that requires a college degree.
I'm doing more than that. I'm calling it a cartel. Its product is labor.
This graph dispels any argument that the U.S. is not spending enough money on public education. 2nd in the world per pupil.We're neck and neck with Switzerland on spending per pupil, K-12.
Fightin' Buck: you're a teacher, right? I don't doubt that teachers don't earn enough. One of the problems appears to be the excess bureaucracy in the school systems (i.e. too many administrators). I'd guess to venture that is where most of the money leaks out of the system.
The other problem in a lot of states is that we're spending an obscene amount of money on teachers who retired long ago. Where else can you work for 30 years and then retire and collect a paycheck and benefits for another 40 years?
I don't know if you honestly believe this or are just being kind, but I cannot disagree enough. Many teachers earn more (sometimes much more) than they are worth. Precious few teachers earn far, far too little for the job they do (think- Lean on me guy).
There are some fantastic teachers that earn far too little. These are the top of the pyramid types (call it 10%), and I would love to see them incentivized where they could earn 100k plus if they were good, and could demonstratably prove that they are killing it with student achievement (and I'm not talking about passing the TASK- I'm talking about the kind that takes kids that weren't passing and makes them pass- or takes kids scoring in the 10th percentile and gets them up to the 40th or 50th).
Then, there is the majority of people on campus, who probably earn a fair wage. They do their job, at least passably, and the kids more or less learn, without any major dust ups. That's probalby about 50 or 60% of the campus, and they are making a fair wage (this is where I'd put myself at as a teacher).
Then, there is the 30% of campus that sucks- complains about everything, weasels out of doing anything extra to help the kids, plays movies for a week at a time that aren't even related to subject material). These people need to be fired, probably. And if not fired they are stealing money and grossly overpaid for their worth.
This is naive thinking. Politicians give unions taxpayer funded goodies in exchange for votes. There is no seat at the table for taxpayers.
And corporations who have an anti-union bent give polticians goodies in exchange for votes.
Chebacca was blamming an institution that is doing its job. If politicans give corporations favorable legislation that harms the environment or harms the taxpayer in some way, I don't blame corporations -- I blame politicians.
Blame is for people who aren't doing what they are paid/supposed to do.
If a corporation harms the environment I can sue them in court.
MilitaryWhere else can you work for 30 years and then retire and collect a paycheck and benefits for another 40 years?
That's an interesting fact.
by following federal law allowing them to do so
http://www.ssa.gov/slge/faqs.htm
http://www.ssa.gov/slge/sect_218_agree.htm
And you think this is OK? that governors should just get elected to office, turn extremist to curry favors with the national party? No wonder the system is broke.
No, he needs to be stopped for the same reason scandals tend to end political careers. Slime balls out of office.
As for tax payers at the table? since when do you people support participatory democracy? did politicians put the people at the table when they declare war? no because the way the system was framed was representative democracy, the politicians represent the people ergo they are the people.
For the record I prefer participatory democracy, but I do not change my mind when it suits me.
The fact that you won't even admit the conflict of interest exists is telling. Unions want money, healthcare, pensions and protection for their members. Politicians give them that in exchange for votes and campaign contributions, which the unions deliver to them. Who represents the taxpayer again?
Where can you find it outside a government job? Cops, teachers, firefighters, military. All .gov jobs.
BTW, still waiting for someone to tell me how unions help student outcomes in public schools...
Public schools suck. They don't teach kids to think anymore. They spend all their time preparing kids for state mandated tests so they can keep their funds up. Most of my family is in education and they have never seen such a sorry state of students. Private schools spend the same amount of money per student as public school. The problem with education in this country is not an easy fix. It needs to be completely reorganized. The public school system is producing 1/2 it's graduates with an inability to prosper or hold a job in the global economy. This means 1/2 the country will be nothing more than a ward of the state. Money is not the issue
Seriously, you wanna go down that road ? What politician doesn't want to curry favor with specific voting blocks ? Oh yeah state candidates get their Fu ding from their star political orgs who in turn also get money from the national parties. So don't try to tell me he's unique in his actions.
He came into office and ousted a group that had become self serving at the expense of students and the state. This is a concept people on both sides of the aisle need to wrap their heads around. We need to cut spending everywhere. Everyone needs to share in this pain.
Unions have out lived their original purpose and now act as major voting blocks for whichever part will give them the most concessions(SEE: democrats do this with precision).
Last edited by OnBoard; 04-19-2012 at 06:44 PM.
Got it he shares your ideology so it is ok.
He is ponds$#@! but that has never stopped the republican party supporting morally dubious characters like Perry, Palin, Gingrich and what not.
Trolling Governors is now the Republican standard for decency, too bad its backfiring in Washington state with their candidate stating that he is under no certain terms a Scott Walker.
Walker is likely a piece of $#@! just like other politicians. But even pieces of $#@! can get things right here and there. This is one of them.
Dumb$#@!. Yeah, private schools do more with the same or less. They also are free to dump non-performing students instead of investing extra time in them.
He's not my governor, but if he was and was actually doing something about out of control spiraling costs I'd be right behind him. Reality is a bitch my friend, you need to take a healthy dose or just extract your head from your nether regions .
It's damn easy to promise everybody everything under the sun (SEE: most democrat election platforms) .it's the leader who tells people we need to make changes and does it.
Oh, and about my ideology, I'd love to be able to help everyone, who really needed help and was trying to help themselves at the same time, but we cannot go on funding every program and think the. Obey will magically show up. Reality is my world not idealism or ideology.
British Horn, public schools don't all suck. Many are as good if not better than private schools. Our state schools are among the best in the country. The country schools in our district compete with the private schools for the number of kids get into the Ivys. We don't have teacher unions and have magnet schools within the public schools that kids apply to (math and science, language, engineering, international baccalaureate, performing arts). It all begins with the parents though. No involvement by parents and no success at school
Last edited by OnBoard; 04-19-2012 at 08:28 PM.
He is not fixing $#@!, he is feeding you BS about fixing it while touring the national circuit, he does not give a $#@! about Wisconsin, its just a stepping stone he can leave in ashes or in health.
You think he is driving in the right direction, but only because of ideology, there is no science behind his reasoning (nor is there really a possibility).
The idea of representative democracy is accountability, he has none because he is eyeing the national spotlight.
This post makes me think Walker might win. I hope so and I hope he can expand his common sense reforms to the rest of the country.
The state of WI and all those districts saved real, tangible dollars. Hate him if you want, that fact won't change.
Many states are going to have to address their unions and pensions soon or they'll be $#@!ed. Wringing your hands and saying how everyone's motives are not pure also won't change anything.
I find curious the repeated assertion that taxpayers have no seat at a table which has a seat at it for their elected representative.
Rather than such reach such an obviously untrue conclusion, why are so many actively ignorant of the simple reality that our pols act as we want them to act, and that we, collectively, want our pols to act stupidly?
Cute. Millions of dollars are flooding into WI from outside interests to recall Walker from outside the state.
And what do think he is doing in Oklahoma and Illinois? The difference between the Local unions and Walker is that Walker can skip the state for the national stage regardless of result, Unions still have to live in Wisconsin and suffer his failures (or success).
Why you guys can't see this moral corruption, you are just pining for an authoritarian to non-violently crush competition so that your ideology can be implemented. Democracy is too tepid for your tastes.
I can understand emergencies but WI was not even remotely in need of the nuclear option. Just a hundred million or two over budget.
You think Walker is only fighting local unions? How quaint.
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