The war on women

[TheTexasHammer]

No, the REAL one. Not the "I'm entitled to free BCP's and if you say I'm not you hate women" war on women, the other one.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...o_they_hate_us








Above all, I'm saying the article is worth a read. I find absolutely nothing of its conclusions to be the slightest bit controversial.

[carrera]

I read the article awhile ago. It has gotten a lot press both positive and negative.

I would do dirty things to the woman painted in black.

[OnBoard]

I would do dirty things to the woman painted in black.

I wouldn't say that means you hate women either.

[linux]

The piece was extremely light, more of an emotional appeal than anything really digging deep to the core of why.

When you wage a religious war against muslims (whether you even believe it is being waged at all is irreverent) it only forces them to dig deeper into silly traditions and superstitions. Woman rights in the ME will only advance once peace gets there.

[rage-a-holic]

The piece was extremely light, more of an emotional appeal than anything really digging deep to the core of why.

When you wage a religious war against muslims (whether you even believe it is being waged at all is irreverent) it only forces them to dig deeper into silly traditions and superstitions. Woman rights in the ME will only advance once peace gets there.

What a giant $#@!ing load of appeasing, apologist horse$#@!.

[The Missing Link]

The piece was extremely light, more of an emotional appeal than anything really digging deep to the core of why.

When you wage a religious war against muslims (whether you even believe it is being waged at all is irreverent) it only forces them to dig deeper into silly traditions and superstitions. Woman rights in the ME will only advance once peace gets there.

Hirohito and Hitler agree.

[El Guapo]

What a giant $#@!ing load of appeasing, apologist horse$#@!.

Yep. If we don't give women free birth control pills, we're evil sexist oppressors but real evil sexist oppressors get a pass because to call them out on it would undermine some other leftist agenda.

Liberals make me want to puke.

[Basil Your Face]

Linux is such in insightful young man.

[OnBoard]

Hirohito and Hitler agree.

The piece was extremely light, more of an emotional appeal than anything really digging deep to the core of why.

When you wage a religious war against muslims (whether you even believe it is being waged at all is irreverent) it only forces them to dig deeper into silly traditions and superstitions. Woman rights in the ME will only advance once peace gets there.

Exactly when will peace arrive the Middle East ??

Will it be when the oil runs out ?

Will it be when they recognize Israels right to exist ?

Will it be when religious beliefs stop trumping individual rights that don't follow religious dogma ?

Will it be this century ?

Pick one anyone .........

[wildcat09]

Yep. If we don't give women free birth control pills, we're evil sexist oppressors but real evil sexist oppressors get a pass because to call them out on it would undermine some other leftist agenda.

Liberals make me want to puke.

You know, one would think that you of all people would understand that people don't get health insurance for free.

[Foosters Galore]

You know, one would think that you of all people would understand that people don't get health insurance for free.

Yeah, no $#@!. $#@!ing ridiculous how quickly some on the right moved to forgo reality and create their own controversy.

[TheTexasHammer]

Yeah, no $#@!. $#@!ing ridiculous how quickly some on the right moved to forgo reality and create their own controversy.

Here, let me "make up a controversy" for you. Now explain to me how I fabricated this congressional testimony.

[wildcat09]

Hammer, I will give you $50 via paypal if you can point out where Fluke demands free birth control paid for by the public treasury.

[linux]

Yep. If we don't give women free birth control pills, we're evil sexist oppressors but real evil sexist oppressors get a pass because to call them out on it would undermine some other leftist agenda.

You are sexists oppressors because you KILL those same women you try to SAVE, you will never understand, your guns and bombs are not trained to kill only oppressing men. Your money shot kills girls of all ages as well, and the IED's mop up the rest.

I wish you people would think before you post, I mean really dig deep, well except for rage I love it when he comes out from hiding.

[TheTexasHammer]

You are sexists oppressors because you KILL those same women you try to SAVE, you will never understand, your guns and bombs are not trained to kill only oppressing men. Your money shot kills girls of all ages as well, and the IED's mop up the rest.

I wish you people would think before you post, I mean really dig deep, well except for rage I love it when he comes out from hiding.

Do you know how crazy you are?

[Future Man]

Will it be when they recognize Israels right to exist ?

heyoooo. jews!

[linux]

Do you know how crazy you are?

Yeah and I am the idoit.

Keep thinking that your wars save women, no doubt some sort of bizarre sexual fantasy, add money and you have the GOP troika psyche in one neat little box.

[Basil Your Face]

Yeah and I am the idoit.

It's silly because most everyone here thinks you're an idiot. You parade it like a hall monitor badge. So, you're the idiot or the rest of us are. It's a toss up, I concede, but broseph, well . . .

[OnBoard]

heyoooo. jews!

So you focus on that ? Yeah, don't look at the completely bat $#@! crazy statement that I was responding to : linking womens rights and peace in the Middle East ? That string of words shows a lack of knowledge of the culture of the Middle East. Peace has nothing to do with the rights women may or may not achieve some day.

[linux]

It's silly because most everyone here thinks you're an idiot. You parade it like a hall monitor badge. So, you're the idiot or the rest of us are. It's a toss up, I concede, but broseph, well . . .

I ask that same question every day.

[clear lake horn]

You are sexists oppressors because you KILL those same women you try to SAVE, you will never understand, your guns and bombs are not trained to kill only oppressing men. Your money shot kills girls of all ages as well, and the IED's mop up the rest.

I wish you people would think before you post, I mean really dig deep, well except for rage I love it when he comes out from hiding.

Let's see if I follow your logic:

Wars and guns and bombs kill women
Killing women = sexual oppression
Barack Obama fights wars with guns and bombs
Barack Obama is a sexual oppressor.

Is that what you meant to say?

[MaduroUTMB]

You are sexists oppressors because you KILL those same women you try to SAVE, you will never understand, your guns and bombs are not trained to kill only oppressing men. Your money shot kills girls of all ages as well, and the IED's mop up the rest.

I wish you people would think before you post, I mean really dig deep, well except for rage I love it when he comes out from hiding.

I can't seem to find the American with a gun to that guy's head, forcing him to beat a woman in public. I bet we just photoshopped him out to make better propaganda.

[Brisketexan]

I'm trying to figure out, what is the point of this thread, comparing violent attrocities against women to the political climate in the US? Is it "hey, womens -- at least you aren't getting publicly flogged, so quit your bitching . . . you're lucky we let you have it so good?"

The comparison is stupid.

Relegating women to second-class citizens is bull$#@!, period. Whether you do it with a whip, or with a forced medical procedure, it's bull$#@!. It is logically fallacious to compare the two in order to give one any more or less "credit."

I mean, if I beat my kids, it's cool, because I can dig up an article about how, if we were in Bangladesh, they'd be working in brutal conditions in a shipyard for 16 hours a day by the time they're 9 . . . so man, don't tell me that I'm waging a war on children?

The right can continue to try to argue against what's going on, and can continue to be tone deaf, but the proof is in the pudding. Women are bailing on the Republican party in droves. "But it's not mysogynistic! We're not doing anything that bad!" Yell it all you want. It ain't doing any good.

[TheTexasHammer]

I'm trying to figure out, what is the point of this thread, comparing violent attrocities against women to the political climate in the US? Is it "hey, womens -- at least you aren't getting publicly flogged, so quit your bitching . . . you're lucky we let you have it so good?"

The comparison is stupid.

Relegating women to second-class citizens is bull$#@!, period. Whether you do it with a whip, or with a forced medical procedure, it's bull$#@!. It is logically fallacious to compare the two in order to give one any more or less "credit."

I mean, if I beat my kids, it's cool, because I can dig up an article about how, if we were in Bangladesh, they'd be working in brutal conditions in a shipyard for 16 hours a day by the time they're 9 . . . so man, don't tell me that I'm waging a war on children?

The right can continue to try to argue against what's going on, and can continue to be tone deaf, but the proof is in the pudding. Women are bailing on the Republican party in droves. "But it's not mysogynistic! We're not doing anything that bad!" Yell it all you want. It ain't doing any good.

Your posts sound fine until you figure out your trick. The truth is, an intelligent person would find a new trick. This one is getting exceptionally old.

1. Restate the position you oppose, but slightly distorted.
2. Firmly state your support for some general principle like "I support mom and apple pie" or "I love America". Falsely argue that others oppose these undeniable truths.
3. Reiterate the red herring and your opposition to it.

In this case, you falsely claim you don't understand that the Dems want free $#@! and call it a "war on women". It's in the $#@!ing title of the video which you apparently couldn't be bothered to read.

I fail to understand your motivation in posting things that are not even remotely plausible or true. You yet again effectively demolished an argument nobody was making. You really need a need technique of argumentation.

[Foosters Galore]

Your posts sound fine until you figure out your trick. The truth is, an intelligent person would find a new trick. This one is getting exceptionally old.

1. Restate the position you oppose, but slightly distorted.
2. Firmly state your support for some general principle like "I support mom and apple pie" or "I love America". Falsely argue that others oppose these undeniable truths.
3. Reiterate the red herring and your opposition to it.

In this case, you falsely claim you don't understand that the Dems want free $#@! and call it a "war on women". It's in the $#@!ing title of the video which you apparently couldn't be bothered to read.

I fail to understand your motivation in posting things that are not even remotely plausible or true. You yet again effectively demolished an argument nobody was making. You really need a need technique of argumentation.

Could you please answer the question posed to you above? I believe there was $50 involved. I'd be careful admonishing those for being dishonest when you've knowingly engaged in the same just a few posts up.

[libertytxn]

Hammer, I will give you $50 via paypal if you can point out where Fluke demands free birth control paid for by the public treasury.

Wildcat, nice strawman! I will give you $50 via paypal if you can point out where Hammer said that "Fluke demands free birth control paid for by the public treasury".

[linux]

Let's see if I follow your logic:

Wars and guns and bombs kill women
Killing women = sexual oppression
Barack Obama fights wars with guns and bombs
Barack Obama is a sexual oppressor.

Is that what you meant to say?

The moral calculus is more complex than that, do Republican wars save women? no they kill hundreds of thousands of them whether directly or indirectly. Not to mention their male family members, yet they pat themselves on the back.

Obama lucked out in Libya because it was surgical. He probably saved more women but the Jury is still out.

I bet we just photoshopped him out to make better propaganda

Cameras rarely survive stray bombs, so no video evidence of oppression.

[FCHorn]

If Republicans are waging a war on women then what are women waging on children via abortion? Because I dont see that as something peaceful or humane....

Let's destroy this village to save it!

[roquentin]

i thought abortions saved the village and made it more peaceful as crime has gone down with the legalization of abortion? nothing is better than to be brought into this world by responsible parents rather than have parents who pass the buck and claim that they brought you into the world because the laws said so.

[linux]

If Republicans are waging a war on women then what are women waging on children via abortion? Because I dont see that as something peaceful or humane....

Let's destroy this village to save it!

I don't want to rehash the debate but, All women are alive, nobody disputes this statement, even the most fundamentalist christian admits that women are alive.

The same cannot be said for a fetus.

[wildcat09]

Wildcat, nice strawman! I will give you $50 via paypal if you can point out where Hammer said that "Fluke demands free birth control paid for by the public treasury".

You guys keep saying that these sluts want taxpayers to pay for their free birth control. I'll make you the same offer if you can ever back up that claim. Or you can admit you're full of $#@! and distorting their argument because otherwise it sounds perfectly reasonable.

[Brisketexan]

Your posts sound fine until you figure out your trick. The truth is, an intelligent person would find a new trick. This one is getting exceptionally old.

1. Restate the position you oppose, but slightly distorted.
2. Firmly state your support for some general principle like "I support mom and apple pie" or "I love America". Falsely argue that others oppose these undeniable truths.
3. Reiterate the red herring and your opposition to it.

In this case, you falsely claim you don't understand that the Dems want free $#@! and call it a "war on women". It's in the $#@!ing title of the video which you apparently couldn't be bothered to read.

I fail to understand your motivation in posting things that are not even remotely plausible or true. You yet again effectively demolished an argument nobody was making. You really need a need technique of argumentation.

Well, that doesn't really make much sense. You accuse me of this repeatedly, but I am thinking that you are the only one that sees things that way (and, ironically, when you type out these screeds, they are a mirror image of themselves -- they are what you accuse me of doing. I do appreciate good irony). You have shown a tendency to see most things through a self-fulfilling prism, so this does seem to fit your way of dealing with the world. Most of all, you seem like an angry dude. I'd suggest a drink. Scotch, neat. If that's not your thing, I hear these new sweet tea vodkas go down easy, so maybe give one of those a whirl.

I WILL ask again, though . . . what's the $#@!ing point of comparing muslim treatment of women to the treatment of women in the US?

[YoLaDu]

what's the $#@!ing point of comparing muslim treatment of women to the treatment of women in the US?

that is what i am wondering as well.

[Wulaw Horn]

You guys keep saying that these sluts want taxpayers to pay for their free birth control. I'll make you the same offer if you can ever back up that claim. Or you can admit you're full of $#@! and distorting their argument because otherwise it sounds perfectly reasonable.

Look up the you tube of the dumb bitch from Bradley that I posted about... "you guys are like freedom- yeah freedom and liberty and the pursuit of happiness- yeah.. you want to know what would make me happy? FREE BIRTH CONTROL!"

I don't have a problem with fluke or flake or whatever, but by the time the message gets down to the masses it's "gimme my free goodies".

[FondrenRoad]

This thread is an abortion.

[Wulaw Horn]

Well, that doesn't really make much sense. You accuse me of this repeatedly, but I am thinking that you are the only one that sees things that way (and, ironically, when you type out these screeds, they are a mirror image of themselves -- they are what you accuse me of doing. I do appreciate good irony). You have shown a tendency to see most things through a self-fulfilling prism, so this does seem to fit your way of dealing with the world. Most of all, you seem like an angry dude. I'd suggest a drink. Scotch, neat. If that's not your thing, I hear these new sweet tea vodkas go down easy, so maybe give one of those a whirl.

I WILL ask again, though . . . what's the $#@!ing point of comparing muslim treatment of women to the treatment of women in the US?

How about this... the US feminists spend more time worrying about minor slights domestically (real or perceived- and I'd argue it's the latter more than the former) than they do worrying about vicious and inhumane treatment of their gender all throughout the world, and when a republican president does something to enhance or promote the lives of women that are treated abroad like $#@! it is met with crickets chirping. In the meantime, back home, we have the feminists condemning lego's for making pink lego's and marketing them to girls instead of marketing space ships or fire trucks.

You also have non-sense where in the name of equality (and this is some time ago admittedly) women can pass firemen tests only by so weakening physical standards that they can't do $#@! like hold a fire hose or carry some dude/chick up or down a ladder.

I'd love to be a feminist. I love my wife, my mom and my daughter. I don't want to live in a world where my daughter is demeaned or diminished or treated poorly, or held back in any way, shape or form by her gender. I also, however, feel it's absurd to act like men and women (again in general there is an exception to every rule of human behavior) are the same. There are very real gender differences hard wired into us from birth and to pretend that they don't exist, or that we are all the same is absurd. Too often, I believe, feminists confuse treating everyone like they are exactly the same with equality. This is simply not so, and makes them a laughing stock (to me at least).

[Wulaw Horn]

This thread is an abortion.

Although I might not often agree with you- this made me laugh this am. Thanks for that.

[FondrenRoad]

How about this... the US feminists spend more time worrying about minor slights domestically (real or perceived- and I'd argue it's the latter more than the former) than they do worrying about vicious and inhumane treatment of their gender all throughout the world, and when a republican president does something to enhance or promote the lives of women that are treated abroad like $#@! it is met with crickets chirping. In the meantime, back home, we have the feminists condemning lego's for making pink lego's and marketing them to girls instead of marketing space ships or fire trucks.

You also have non-sense where in the name of equality (and this is some time ago admittedly) women can pass firemen tests only by so weakening physical standards that they can't do $#@! like hold a fire hose or carry some dude/chick up or down a ladder.

I'd love to be a feminist. I love my wife, my mom and my daughter. I don't want to live in a world where my daughter is demeaned or diminished or treated poorly, or held back in any way, shape or form by her gender. I also, however, feel it's absurd to act like men and women (again in general there is an exception to every rule of human behavior) are the same. There are very real gender differences hard wired into us from birth and to pretend that they don't exist, or that we are all the same is absurd. Too often, I believe, feminists confuse treating everyone like they are exactly the same with equality. This is simply not so, and makes them a laughing stock (to me at least).

The answer is pretty simple. Just because it is $#@!tier elsewhere, doesn't mean it is perfect here. It is always easier to effect change at home.

[Wulaw Horn]

The answer is pretty simple. Just because it is $#@!tier elsewhere, doesn't mean it is perfect here. It is always easier to effect change at home.

I'm not arguing it's perfect here. Just as close to perfect as it's ever been, in any country in the world, throughout the entire history of the world. I feel like this perspective gets overlooked at times. I wish that instead of getting up in arms about lego colors there would be more done about the shockingly inhumane treatment of women worldwide. I've heard it said that the best indication of a societies prosperity is how it treats it's women. I don't know if this is a cause and effect thing (treat women well and society propsers- which is my guess) or an after the fact thing (only prosperous societies can afford to treat their women well), but I think there is truth to this in a lot of ways.

[tantric superman]

I don't have a problem with fluke or flake or whatever, but by the time the message gets down to the masses it's "gimme my free goodies".

So therefore what? This is an excuse for running with a distorted message?

[FondrenRoad]

I'm not arguing it's perfect here. Just as close to perfect as it's ever been, in any country in the world, throughout the entire history of the world. I feel like this perspective gets overlooked at times. I wish that instead of getting up in arms about lego colors there would be more done about the shockingly inhumane treatment of women worldwide. I've heard it said that the best indication of a societies prosperity is how it treats it's women. I don't know if this is a cause and effect thing (treat women well and society propsers- which is my guess) or an after the fact thing (only prosperous societies can afford to treat their women well), but I think there is truth to this in a lot of ways.

Muslim nations treat women exceptionally bad. Even compared to historic societies. There is no argument there.

The issue is that there is a "shut up and like it because it is worse somewhere else" mentality that is pervasive lately in the conservative ranks, and not just on this matter. Would you tell a child to just accept a spanking that causes deep bruising because some other child got brain damage and a broken arm?

This could have been a discussion about what could be done for women in Muslim nations. The OP instead chose to attack women who have tried to better their lives here. There is no longer serious discourse on the Cloak Room. Perhaps there never was.

[OnBoard]

I don't want to rehash the debate but, All women are alive, nobody disputes this statement, even the most fundamentalist christian admits that women are alive.

The same cannot be said for a fetus.

Wow, just wow. We would scour the cosmos for a stray bacteria that would prove life exists on other planets, but you postulate that a living organism inside a womans' body isn't alive? When is it alive? after it leaves the vagina ? but certainly not before a doctor jambs a surgical tool into it's brain before its head exits the vagina ???

[Brisketexan]

I'm not arguing it's perfect here. Just as close to perfect as it's ever been, in any country in the world, throughout the entire history of the world. I feel like this perspective gets overlooked at times. I wish that instead of getting up in arms about lego colors there would be more done about the shockingly inhumane treatment of women worldwide. I've heard it said that the best indication of a societies prosperity is how it treats it's women. I don't know if this is a cause and effect thing (treat women well and society propsers- which is my guess) or an after the fact thing (only prosperous societies can afford to treat their women well), but I think there is truth to this in a lot of ways.

I will agree with you that the fringe feminists -- the kind who get pissed about pink legos and $#@! -- are idiots, and are arguing about meaningless $#@!. So, let's take them out of the equation.

You DO realize there's other stuff going on with women these days, right? You know, like mandatory sonograms and such? The fact that there are twits out there bitching about legos doesn't have anything to do with the other, real issues facing women in the US.

And, so they have it "better" than it's been for most of history. Really? So that's it? So long as a person, gender, race, whatever, has it "better" than it was before, then they should sit down and shut up and be happy with what we've allowed them to have?

Again, the social conservatives insist and argue that they aren't hostile to women, their choices, their rights, their privacy, etc. But their actions speak differently, and women are hearing that. The women who are turning against that movement in droves are generally NOT the kind who give a $#@! about legos and such. They are the women you know and work with, socialize with, etc. And you can argue about what's really going on -- but they're not buying it. Perception is reality. If the social conservatives want to end up losing a sizeable portion of the women's vote, they're right on track. And either a $#@!LOAD of women are just plain stupid and don't get it, or maybe -- just MAYBE -- the social conservatives don't get it.

[tantric superman]

How about this... the US feminists spend more time worrying about minor slights domestically (real or perceived- and I'd argue it's the latter more than the former) than they do worrying about vicious and inhumane treatment of their gender all throughout the world, and when a republican president does something to enhance or promote the lives of women that are treated abroad like $#@! it is met with crickets chirping.

How about this...how about you and the OP not making ridiculous comparisons and oversimplifications and generalizations (what Republican president enhanced the lives of women abroad?).

Saying any American policy in recent years has enhanced the lives of women in the middle east is like saying the Missouri Compromise enhanced the lives of slaves in the deep South.

And don't accuse feminists of confusing stuff after the confusing crap on this thread.

[Wulaw Horn]

So therefore what? This is an excuse for running with a distorted message?

No, I don't know that the message is distorded. Is Fluke the only person that speaks on the birth control debate? There is a wide spectrum out there, from ban the ability to take birth control at all on the fringe of the right to $#@! you, pay for my birth control in it's entirety on the kooky left. I think there are more people on the left extreme than the right extreme, but the right extreme is villified more for whatever reason.

Watch clips from Mitt's Illinois Q&A that I referenced. Lots of cheers. For many this is a war for free birth control. I'm not saying that's what Fluke wants. I'm saying that's what a lot of people in her camp expect/want though.

[tantric superman]

All that being said, I think our policy in the middle east should virtually ONLY be about women's rights and freedom. We should get the hell out of there, other than CIA and spies and a few quick strike capablities, and sanction those sons of bitches for their medieval bull$#@! attitude regarding women.

I have my little car, so they can raise the price of oil if they want, and stop sending us chick peas or whatever the hell they grow over there.

[tantric superman]

I think there are more people on the left extreme than the right extreme, but the right extreme is villified more for whatever reason.

Okay, the poor right. Your thoughts are noted.

Back before Reagan was elected, the Right wasn't a bunch of pussies.

[Wulaw Horn]

The issue is that there is a "shut up and like it because it is worse somewhere else" mentality that is pervasive lately in the conservative ranks, and not just on this matter. Would you tell a child to just accept a spanking that causes deep bruising because some other child got brain damage and a broken arm?

I'm saying your analogy is flawed. I think it's closer to telling a kid, shut up about your brother getting 2 scoops of ice cream while you got 1. There are kids starving in the homeless shelter down the street.

But, like I said, I have a daughter and I don't want her to be diminished in any way. She's the best thing I've ever done with my life. I want fair treatment for her in every way, shape and form. But fair does not always equate to perfectly equal. I don't want her being a fire man if she's not strong enough to carry a normal human body up and down a ladder. I don't think it makes sense to ignore the fact that there are actual differences in the gender's, especially physically.

[FCHorn]

Women have access to BC, can have abortions pretty much up to their due date, can file for divorce, leave their husband, can run for elective office, can vote, go to college, get great jobs, be with another woman....I'm failing to see where this war is being waged against women in any way...

Whole thing is a canard...

[Brisketexan]

be with another woman

go on . . . .