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Thread: January 7, 2010 BCS National Championship Game Starters

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Quick View Post

    Maybe all that has changed, but we didn't get this bad overnight, even if it felt like it, and we will not return to power that quickly either unless David Ash is the second coming of Colt McCoy.
    If David Ash can be average, Texas can win the Big-12. We now have a system in place where you don't need Superman to win games.

  2. #52
    asshat WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry View Post
    OFFENSE

    QB Colt McCoy - 2010 3rd Round
    RB Tre Newton - Undrafted
    WR Dan Buckner - Undrafted
    WR James Kirkendoll - Undrafted
    WR Jordan Shipley - 2010 3rd Round
    WR Malcolm Williams - Undrafted
    OL Adam Ulatoski - Undrafted
    OL Charlie Tanner - Undrafted
    OL Chris Hall - Undrafted
    OL Michael Huey - Undrafted
    OL Kyle Hix - Undrafted
    Texas 13, Wyoming 10, halftime
    340 total yards against Tech; 10-3 halftime lead
    313 total yards against Colorado; offense scored 17 pts including a garbage time TD
    269 total yards against OU; three field goals and a touchdown
    275 total yards against Oklahoma State; offense scored 24 pts
    21 pts after three quarters against UCF
    202 yards and 13 pts against Nebraska
    77 yards in the first half against Alabama

    That offense was so pathetic so often. God, do I despise Greg Davis

  3. #53
    asshat BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    I understood CTJ's analysis of the deficiencies of Texas recruiting strategy. Not only were there some over-rated players, but there were some mismatched players (on the o-line in particular). That being said, even if you throw out Rivals rankings, there's not a team in the Big 12 that out-recruited Texas from 2006-10.

    At some point, when you have an offensive coordinator that refuses to incorporate a running game into the offense, an strength and conditioning coach who checks out, an o-line coach who doesn't develop a two-deep, a receiver coach who allows receivers to take plays off, you have to acknowledge that the major discrepancy between recruiting rankings and performance was player development and not recruiting services. Geoff Ketchum's not responsible or important enough to be responsible for 13-12.
    When you say out recruiting that are you talking about their ranking on a service, their collegiate production, or their draft position?

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by BurntOrange&White View Post
    When you say out recruiting that are you talking about their ranking on a service, their collegiate production, or their draft position?
    I'm talking about the pre-signing day rankings based on high school production. Once a player steps on campus, sits a few years, grows a pot belly or suffers an injury, then you can throw out the recruiting rankings.

  5. #55
    After comparing our list with Bama's, and considering Colt's absence combined with GG's abilities (or lack thereof), one thing jumps out at me more than anything else: Jordan Shipley is a certified badass.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by VY_myHero View Post
    After comparing our list with Bama's, and considering Colt's absence combined with GG's abilities (or lack thereof), one thing jumps out at me more than anything else: Jordan Shipley is a certified badass.
    Shipley had that NFL certified Bama secondary all bent out of shape. That Shipley crossing pattern TD was one of the coolest football plays I've personally witnessed as I was in the horseshoe behind the band; GG threw it directly in my line of sight, at the moment I thought "wtf is he doing throwing to open space??" then out of nowhere the predatory falcon swooped in and leaving the 2 Bama fools in his wake all confused blaming each other.
    Last edited by H34TX; 04-30-2012 at 03:12 PM.

  7. #57
    asshat BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    I'm talking about the pre-signing day rankings based on high school production. Once a player steps on campus, sits a few years, grows a pot belly or suffers an injury, then you can throw out the recruiting rankings.
    Most experts say recruiting success is best proved with on the field results at the the collegiate level. Just because you are ranked so high in HS doesn't mean that will translate over to the next level. Just like being ranked low doesn't mean you won't make it.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    I'm talking about the pre-signing day rankings based on high school production. Once a player steps on campus, sits a few years, grows a pot belly or suffers an injury, then you can throw out the recruiting rankings.
    You changed the target of conversation in the middle of the dialogue and I am not sure why, whether to fit your narrative or because you weren't pay close enough attention. 2010 isn't a part of this discussion, class-wise. There are 4 deadbeat classes that have pummeled this program, they signed in consecutive seasons and 2010 is not one of them. It is referenced repeatedly prior to your posts where you bring 2010 into the conversation. 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 are the classes that have had a negative impact on this program, and in major ways. 2010 is good-to-great class, in which numerous coaches began asserting themselves on the recruiting front and outhustling other staffs and doing the legwork for success. Sure it has some dead weight in it because McWhorter was still around, but Muschamp and Applewhite did work that year. You can't introduce Darius White into the story because it fits your notion that Texas had so many 5 stars busting that everyone wanted. No one but you is bitching about 2010. There is a history of posts on the recruiting board of this site to support what I am saying here. We hated some of the typically stupid OL and early takes, but loved much of the class as it was brought in.

    In fact, 2010 is an example, as is Darius White, of how terrific recruiting over a long period of time forgives the misses. White not producing hurts, but Texas has signed some good-to-great WRs around and over him and that will continue. Mike Davis is an example of Texas getting it wrong in March and getting it right on signing day. Yeah, he struggled late last season, but he's be a damned good overall take, especially if he builds back up over 2012 and 2013. Texas missed his evaluation, let him go to LSU, and then watched more film, kept working him, and turned him back to the good guys later in the process. Without Davis, the White miss is larger. Getting Harris right didn't hurt, either. Shipley is a legacy so Texas would have probably gotten him either way. The rest of the guys in the last two classes are debatable, however. The difference and diversity in what they can do the offense versus what the WR classes in 2006-2009 looked like is ridiculous.

    It isn't about getting a few 5 stars and some 4 stars. It's about getting enough of the ones who have the right ceiling and work ethic to build a solid foundation for titles. They signed Tray Allen without knowing where they were even going to play him. Worse, they didn't know what kind of offensive lineman they really wanted at any spot. That's a recruiting recipe for failure. OLs don't go anywhere else and they don't leave. They are literally extra weight for a roster than can't be shaken. Is some of that developmental? Yes. But some of it, most of it, is letting the market tell you what kind of OL you like based on who the easiest assets are to recruit. Guess who those were? Soft CenTex white boys who had dreamed of playing for Texas all of their soft lives. Yea!! for us. It certainly wasn't going out and finding Russell Okung or Trent Williams.

    You may not think the behavior around Gilbert was recruiting related or a recruiting problem long term, but I can only laugh and eye roll at that one. They detached themselves from the Texas QB pipeline for two years to get the guy. Again, they had no clue what they wanted him to do in the offense, but they knew they wanted him. Part of that was he wanted them, but his dad had conditions. That happened. So it isn't about Russell Shepard. It's about Russell Shepard and 5 other QBs they should have pursued to land one or two. It's about a bunch of skill guys that they missed on or will miss on because of the offensive debacle. Dontre Wilson is about to be the latest. All of this begins in recruiting. Great programs have guys to replace the busts. Mediocre programs don't. Texas went from being a great program to a mediocre program because they let recruiting atrophy over a 4 year period and no one noticed until a lot of the who-dats, irrespective of guru rank, had to play and lead the team. The results over the last two years reflect as much.

    There is a reason I've said for years on these boards that the rankings in recruiting don't mean jack $#@!. We witnessed the ATM ranking inflation to appease the recruitnik offline ATM following from 1999 forward. That told me all I needed to know about how the game is played in the recruiting world. I already pointed to similar issues with other programs for the exact same reasons. If you and many others didn't see the freight train coming with the talent pool, it's because you legitimately didn't follow it that closely, which makes sense and is understandable, or you didn't want to believe that the same things we mocked Rivals and Scout for with other programs were happening here, too. I don't think a single person predicted 5-7, but I fully expected 7-5 for several years before Mack "retired" because of what was happening. Luckily?, it was a harsher turn and he was forced to change things or tarnish his legacy, so we've got light at the tunnel now that isn't actually a train.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by closetojumping View Post
    Part of the issue there is that he also decided that Texas could recruit to a higher academic standard than the NCAA mandated. He passed on a number of players over a 2-3 year period that would have otherwise been playing for Texas instead of OU, Baylor, OSU, etc. It was pure arrogance when coupled with an unwillingness to go national or even outwork local competitors.
    Well, in his defense, with his crony running Football academics even though every other program on campus has fired him, he probably does need the academic cushion.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by closetojumping View Post
    You changed the target of conversation in the middle of the dialogue and I am not sure why, whether to fit your narrative or because you weren't pay close enough attention. 2010 isn't a part of this discussion, class-wise. There are 4 deadbeat classes that have pummeled this program, they signed in consecutive seasons and 2010 is not one of them. It is referenced repeatedly prior to your posts where you bring 2010 into the conversation. 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 are the classes that have had a negative impact on this program, and in major ways. 2010 is good-to-great class, in which numerous coaches began asserting themselves on the recruiting front and outhustling other staffs and doing the legwork for success. Sure it has some dead weight in it because McWhorter was still around, but Muschamp and Applewhite did work that year. You can't introduce Darius White into the story because it fits your notion that Texas had so many 5 stars busting that everyone wanted. No one but you is bitching about 2010. There is a history of posts on the recruiting board of this site to support what I am saying here. We hated some of the typically stupid OL and early takes, but loved much of the class as it was brought in.

    In fact, 2010 is an example, as is Darius White, of how terrific recruiting over a long period of time forgives the misses. White not producing hurts, but Texas has signed some good-to-great WRs around and over him and that will continue. Mike Davis is an example of Texas getting it wrong in March and getting it right on signing day. Yeah, he struggled late last season, but he's be a damned good overall take, especially if he builds back up over 2012 and 2013. Texas missed his evaluation, let him go to LSU, and then watched more film, kept working him, and turned him back to the good guys later in the process. Without Davis, the White miss is larger. Getting Harris right didn't hurt, either. Shipley is a legacy so Texas would have probably gotten him either way. The rest of the guys in the last two classes are debatable, however. The difference and diversity in what they can do the offense versus what the WR classes in 2006-2009 looked like is ridiculous.

    It isn't about getting a few 5 stars and some 4 stars. It's about getting enough of the ones who have the right ceiling and work ethic to build a solid foundation for titles. They signed Tray Allen without knowing where they were even going to play him. Worse, they didn't know what kind of offensive lineman they really wanted at any spot. That's a recruiting recipe for failure. OLs don't go anywhere else and they don't leave. They are literally extra weight for a roster than can't be shaken. Is some of that developmental? Yes. But some of it, most of it, is letting the market tell you what kind of OL you like based on who the easiest assets are to recruit. Guess who those were? Soft CenTex white boys who had dreamed of playing for Texas all of their soft lives. Yea!! for us. It certainly wasn't going out and finding Russell Okung or Trent Williams.

    You may not think the behavior around Gilbert was recruiting related or a recruiting problem long term, but I can only laugh and eye roll at that one. They detached themselves from the Texas QB pipeline for two years to get the guy. Again, they had no clue what they wanted him to do in the offense, but they knew they wanted him. Part of that was he wanted them, but his dad had conditions. That happened. So it isn't about Russell Shepard. It's about Russell Shepard and 5 other QBs they should have pursued to land one or two. It's about a bunch of skill guys that they missed on or will miss on because of the offensive debacle. Dontre Wilson is about to be the latest. All of this begins in recruiting. Great programs have guys to replace the busts. Mediocre programs don't. Texas went from being a great program to a mediocre program because they let recruiting atrophy over a 4 year period and no one noticed until a lot of the who-dats, irrespective of guru rank, had to play and lead the team. The results over the last two years reflect as much.

    There is a reason I've said for years on these boards that the rankings in recruiting don't mean jack $#@!. We witnessed the ATM ranking inflation to appease the recruitnik offline ATM following from 1999 forward. That told me all I needed to know about how the game is played in the recruiting world. I already pointed to similar issues with other programs for the exact same reasons. If you and many others didn't see the freight train coming with the talent pool, it's because you legitimately didn't follow it that closely, which makes sense and is understandable, or you didn't want to believe that the same things we mocked Rivals and Scout for with other programs were happening here, too. I don't think a single person predicted 5-7, but I fully expected 7-5 for several years before Mack "retired" because of what was happening. Luckily?, it was a harsher turn and he was forced to change things or tarnish his legacy, so we've got light at the tunnel now that isn't actually a train.
    Rather than look at the details, I'm looking at the big picture. I concur with your assertions about the weaknesses of Texas recruiting strategy. Do you disagree that from 2006-10 Texas had the highest ranked classes (even if you take out Rivals) overall in the Big12?

    Even Rivals star ratings can be used as an indicator of Pro Draft success? Yet, Texas' recruiting rankings: players drafted do not correlate from 06-10. You indicate that discrepancy is due to recruiting bias. I suggest it has more to do with player development (or lack thereof). And, by a lot.
    Last edited by Eskimohorn; 04-30-2012 at 03:47 PM.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by BurntOrange&White View Post
    Most experts say recruiting success is best proved with on the field results at the the collegiate level. Just because you are ranked so high in HS doesn't mean that will translate over to the next level. Just like being ranked low doesn't mean you won't make it.
    You're missing my point. Measuring recruiting success years after Signing Day also measures a collegiate teams player development. Based on internet rumors from 2010, Major was the only coach on offense running drills. And, GDGD barely took time to develop gameplans. Fat Dog stopped supervising workouts year-round. If you didn't have an Orakpo challenging dudes to hit the weights, you didn't have weight room accountability - and that translates into "on the field results."

  12. #62
    asshat closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses closetojumping grows his own roses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    Rather than look at the details, I'm looking at the big picture. I concur with your assertions about the weaknesses of Texas recruiting strategy. Do you disagree that from 2006-10 Texas had the highest ranked classes (even if you take out Rivals) overall in the Big12?

    Even Rivals star ratings can be used as an indicator of Pro Draft success? Yet, Texas' recruiting rankings: players drafted do not correlate from 06-10. You indicate that discrepancy is due to recruiting bias. I suggest it has more to do with player development (or lack thereof). And, by a lot.
    I've never compared Texas rankings over several years to those of other schools, so I can't agree or disagree about that issue and it doesn't matter to me. At an individual level, who is taken with the 3, 4 and 5 star rankings matters a great deal more for a specific analysis, such as who Texas took versus someone like OU. At an aggregate level, there is powerful evidence that star ranking is a good indicator of future NFL relevance. Micro/macro matters here, and even there it isn't the whole story. There are going to be players that a program likes who might be very good performers within that program but might not translate to the NFL. Travis Lewis was great on the OU defense for years. It always seemed farfetched that a guy of his size would wind up being drafted highly, however.

    I don't indicate that "the discrepancy is due to recruiting bias". I indicate that that is part of the problem and the single biggest factor in the discussion pertaining to whether or not recruiting matters in the context of UT's highly rated classes versus performance. Ranking inflation will skew everything. Beyond that, yeah, the development needs to be there and that's been beaten to death. Overall, the raw materials matter first, everything else follows. Texas has been working with adobe; OU, LSU, etc., with steel. That hasn't always been the case but it's how it shook out from 2006-2009.

    Again, I don't understand why you keep lumping 2010 into any of this, though. Is that moving the overall rankings into where you want them to be for the purposes of this dialogue? Or is it something that is stuck in your head as type. That 2010 class is a boom or bust class, and one that anyone would take. I count 13 players who have started or will start from that group. I see 9-10 draft picks depending upon how Wilson continues to develop. Several players from that class will go highly, as soon as next season if they declare early - Jeffcoat and Byndom, for sure. Hicks, Davis, Dorsey, Cobbs, Hopkins, Phillips, Jackson, Wilson, and, gulp, Espinosa, could all be drafted if they continue to develop.

  13. #63
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    Good point on recruiters getting lazy. Dez Bryant would have most likely come here and been All-world for 2 years. You go get the mega-school juicy 5* star who really is not much of a baller, he just looks good playing Jersey Village or North Garland - no offense to either of those fine schools.

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by closetojumping View Post
    I've never compared Texas rankings over several years to those of other schools, so I can't agree or disagree about that issue and it doesn't matter to me. At an individual level, who is taken with the 3, 4 and 5 star rankings matters a great deal more for a specific analysis, such as who Texas took versus someone like OU. At an aggregate level, there is powerful evidence that star ranking is a good indicator of future NFL relevance. Micro/macro matters here, and even there it isn't the whole story. There are going to be players that a program likes who might be very good performers within that program but might not translate to the NFL. Travis Lewis was great on the OU defense for years. It always seemed farfetched that a guy of his size would wind up being drafted highly, however.

    I don't indicate that "the discrepancy is due to recruiting bias". I indicate that that is part of the problem and the single biggest factor in the discussion pertaining to whether or not recruiting matters in the context of UT's highly rated classes versus performance. Ranking inflation will skew everything. Beyond that, yeah, the development needs to be there and that's been beaten to death. Overall, the raw materials matter first, everything else follows. Texas has been working with adobe; OU, LSU, etc., with steel. That hasn't always been the case but it's how it shook out from 2006-2009.

    Again, I don't understand why you keep lumping 2010 into any of this, though. Is that moving the overall rankings into where you want them to be for the purposes of this dialogue? Or is it something that is stuck in your head as type. That 2010 class is a boom or bust class, and one that anyone would take. I count 13 players who have started or will start from that group. I see 9-10 draft picks depending upon how Wilson continues to develop. Several players from that class will go highly, as soon as next season if they declare early - Jeffcoat and Byndom, for sure. Hicks, Davis, Dorsey, Cobbs, Hopkins, Phillips, Jackson, Wilson, and, gulp, Espinosa, could all be drafted if they continue to develop.
    2006-10 is post-MNC, pre-current regime (even the 2010 class will not likely produce many offensive draft picks)

    Ranking inflation does not skew everything, when Texas ranking is Top 5, Top 10 and/or Top 15 in most or all recruiting services each year from 2006-2010. Unless all services are skewed towards Texas. When you benchmark Texas to its peers in the Big 12, our recruiting advantage is almost overwhelming during this time.

    You indicate Texas did not have the raw materials, yet I disagree with you, as did Rivals, ESPN, Scout.com and everyone else at the time. Once they came to Texas, these highly touted raw materials came to a dysfunctional environment, sat on the bench behind the 2003-05 classes, misbehaved, got poor academic advice, got poor weight room training, were put in bad schemes, were not instructed on the fundamentals and coasted behind McCoy/Shipley, Muschamp and superior special teams.

    After all this arrested development, then critics argue how bad our recruiting was between 2006-2009. And, now you claim 2010 could be boom or bust, yet that class was filled in the same way as it was from 2006-09, especially on the offensive side of the ball. Only now are these players being given year-round leadership by coaches and players. This is proof positive how critical player development is in how we view the efficacy of recruiting classes.

  15. #65
    asshat BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokeHornDad View Post
    Good point on recruiters getting lazy. Dez Bryant would have most likely come here and been All-world for 2 years. You go get the mega-school juicy 5* star who really is not much of a baller, he just looks good playing Jersey Village or North Garland - no offense to either of those fine schools.
    Dez Bryant was never going to come to Texas unless he got his academics way up

  16. #66
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    our entire OL went undrafted?

    unpossible

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    Even Rivals star ratings can be used as an indicator of Pro Draft success? Yet, Texas' recruiting rankings: players drafted do not correlate from 06-10. You indicate that discrepancy is due to recruiting bias. I suggest it has more to do with player development (or lack thereof). And, by a lot.
    The best way to determine whether bias or development (or just plain bad luck) was the bigger culprit is to figure out whether Texas's interest in a player resulted in a leap in the player's ranking by the services. I don't recall a lot of huge jumps by Texas commits, but that could be partly due to how early we secure commits (often before the services publish their rankings).

    Regardless, the end result is the same: our offense sucked because our offensive staff sucked. Whether they sucked more at evaluation, recruiting, or development really doesn't matter. The fact is that they sucked badly enough at one or more of those jobs to basically tank the program.

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by BrickHorn View Post
    The best way to determine whether bias or development (or just plain bad luck) was the bigger culprit is to figure out whether Texas's interest in a player resulted in a leap in the player's ranking by the services. I don't recall a lot of huge jumps by Texas commits, but that could be partly due to how early we secure commits (often before the services publish their rankings).

    Regardless, the end result is the same: our offense sucked because our offensive staff sucked. Whether they sucked more at evaluation, recruiting, or development really doesn't matter. The fact is that they sucked badly enough at one or more of those jobs to basically tank the program.
    This is correct, and there actually were some huge jumps by Texas commits. For example, Michael Huey was like 60th in Ketchum's initial LSR in January/February. Then he committed to Texas and ended up in the top 10 on the LSR by the end of the spring and top 100 on the Rivals national list.

    This happens a lot in recruiting. Nearly every basketball recruit for Duke or UNC shoots up the rankings under the logic that those schools wanted him, so he must be good, right? Wojo and Neil Fingleton were named McDonald's All Americans for crying out loud, and they basically sucked.
    Last edited by longhornmatt; 04-30-2012 at 05:47 PM.

  19. #69
    bunghole UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232 slams and goes hard. UTeric3232's Avatar
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    All OPs post tells me is what everyone always preaches...

    D wins championships. The problem for Texas is Bama had a pretty dam good D too

  20. #70
    asshat BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTeric3232 View Post
    All OPs post tells me is what everyone always preaches...

    D wins championships. The problem for Texas is Bama had a pretty dam good D too
    Some say the problem was a certain injury.

  21. #71
    NAACP National Champ Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by closetojumping View Post
    How closely have you followed recruiting, Hoosier? I ask because from a rankings perspective, no doubt very little changed.
    Not religiously. Mostly, enough to see who we have committed, who they had offers from, and who we missed that we were after... but not seriously.

    Therefore when I say "recruiting didn't change," I'm referring to the HS talent level may have had a slight drop-off, but it wasn't a losing record in the big 12 drop-off... but it certainly wasn't a "we're going to win the big 12" increase in effort, either.

    He got content, complacent, and lazy and others took advantage of that. It is hard to stay hungry. It happens in marriages, friendships, work settings, etc. You hit a certain point and cruise control sets in. You put a halo effect around folks you want to admire or respect because you don't want to know the underbelly or do the work for them.
    The truth is, the recruiting rankings for Texas during this period were dramatically inflated. People closer to it knew this, but good luck fighting that on any level. It doesn't mean that rankings before and after were inflated. If Texas is always going to be ranked in the top 10 in recruiting classes, consistency isn't really a harbinger of getting things right. An analyst would, and did, doubt himself before doubting the apparently more absurd possibility that Texas is taking a bunch of guys that other teams don't want. That is exactly what happened. Texas stopped competing with guys like OU, OSU, and LSU for players, but still wound up with a bunch of players highly ranked. Other schools kept doing work, and Texas kept sniffing its own farts. That recruiting gurus failed to notice and the rankings didn't change is actually the simplest damned answer on the board. No one had any incentive to change a thing, other than skeptical fans watching the process.
    I can agree with this, mostly. Recruiting rankings are puffed-up by who is calling on a kid and by local sources. However, *most* of the kids we were after, others were after. Colt McCoy, not so much. Case McCoy not so much... Yeah, we bailed on RGIII and Russell Shepard bailed on us... and Craig Loston couldn't qualify... but who else did we really lose out on that might have made a difference? Martellus Bennett, perhaps. Adrian Peterson.

    However, I've watched a bunch of kids come in here and get no better than they were in high school.

    My guess is, the truth is a bunch of the above. We could have recruited better players who would work to get even better, but it's clear our staff wasn't coaching (S&C, OL, TE) for $#@! lately.

  22. #72
    NAACP National Champ Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Snacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by closetojumping View Post
    You changed the target of conversation in the middle of the dialogue and I am not sure why, whether to fit your narrative or because you weren't pay close enough attention. 2010 isn't a part of this discussion, class-wise. There are 4 deadbeat classes that have pummeled this program, they signed in consecutive seasons and 2010 is not one of them. It is referenced repeatedly prior to your posts where you bring 2010 into the conversation. 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 are the classes that have had a negative impact on this program, and in major ways. 2010 is good-to-great class, in which numerous coaches began asserting themselves on the recruiting front and outhustling other staffs and doing the legwork for success. Sure it has some dead weight in it because McWhorter was still around, but Muschamp and Applewhite did work that year. You can't introduce Darius White into the story because it fits your notion that Texas had so many 5 stars busting that everyone wanted. No one but you is bitching about 2010. There is a history of posts on the recruiting board of this site to support what I am saying here. We hated some of the typically stupid OL and early takes, but loved much of the class as it was brought in.

    In fact, 2010 is an example, as is Darius White, of how terrific recruiting over a long period of time forgives the misses. White not producing hurts, but Texas has signed some good-to-great WRs around and over him and that will continue. Mike Davis is an example of Texas getting it wrong in March and getting it right on signing day. Yeah, he struggled late last season, but he's be a damned good overall take, especially if he builds back up over 2012 and 2013. Texas missed his evaluation, let him go to LSU, and then watched more film, kept working him, and turned him back to the good guys later in the process. Without Davis, the White miss is larger. Getting Harris right didn't hurt, either. Shipley is a legacy so Texas would have probably gotten him either way. The rest of the guys in the last two classes are debatable, however. The difference and diversity in what they can do the offense versus what the WR classes in 2006-2009 looked like is ridiculous.

    It isn't about getting a few 5 stars and some 4 stars. It's about getting enough of the ones who have the right ceiling and work ethic to build a solid foundation for titles. They signed Tray Allen without knowing where they were even going to play him. Worse, they didn't know what kind of offensive lineman they really wanted at any spot. That's a recruiting recipe for failure. OLs don't go anywhere else and they don't leave. They are literally extra weight for a roster than can't be shaken. Is some of that developmental? Yes. But some of it, most of it, is letting the market tell you what kind of OL you like based on who the easiest assets are to recruit. Guess who those were? Soft CenTex white boys who had dreamed of playing for Texas all of their soft lives. Yea!! for us. It certainly wasn't going out and finding Russell Okung or Trent Williams.

    You may not think the behavior around Gilbert was recruiting related or a recruiting problem long term, but I can only laugh and eye roll at that one. They detached themselves from the Texas QB pipeline for two years to get the guy. Again, they had no clue what they wanted him to do in the offense, but they knew they wanted him. Part of that was he wanted them, but his dad had conditions. That happened. So it isn't about Russell Shepard. It's about Russell Shepard and 5 other QBs they should have pursued to land one or two. It's about a bunch of skill guys that they missed on or will miss on because of the offensive debacle. Dontre Wilson is about to be the latest. All of this begins in recruiting. Great programs have guys to replace the busts. Mediocre programs don't. Texas went from being a great program to a mediocre program because they let recruiting atrophy over a 4 year period and no one noticed until a lot of the who-dats, irrespective of guru rank, had to play and lead the team. The results over the last two years reflect as much.

    There is a reason I've said for years on these boards that the rankings in recruiting don't mean jack $#@!. We witnessed the ATM ranking inflation to appease the recruitnik offline ATM following from 1999 forward. That told me all I needed to know about how the game is played in the recruiting world. I already pointed to similar issues with other programs for the exact same reasons. If you and many others didn't see the freight train coming with the talent pool, it's because you legitimately didn't follow it that closely, which makes sense and is understandable, or you didn't want to believe that the same things we mocked Rivals and Scout for with other programs were happening here, too. I don't think a single person predicted 5-7, but I fully expected 7-5 for several years before Mack "retired" because of what was happening. Luckily?, it was a harsher turn and he was forced to change things or tarnish his legacy, so we've got light at the tunnel now that isn't actually a train.
    I'm seeing the light... I think I've even made some of these statements at various times to various people. ctj has pulled it together for me...

  23. #73
    asshat BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo grows his own roses BallamaticBevo's Avatar
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    Blake Gideon didn't get drafted? That's mind bottling. Who wouldn't want a coach on the field that targets. I am dissapoint.

  24. #74
    asshat runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone Shaggy Gold Club runthebone's Avatar
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    Where you see a failure of recruiting, I see great offensive coaching!

  25. #75
    asshat Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy slams and goes hard. Texas Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry View Post
    OFFENSE

    QB Colt McCoy - 2010 3rd Round
    RB Tre Newton - Undrafted
    WR Dan Buckner - Undrafted
    WR James Kirkendoll - Undrafted
    WR Jordan Shipley - 2010 3rd Round
    WR Malcolm Williams - Undrafted
    OL Adam Ulatoski - Undrafted
    OL Charlie Tanner - Undrafted
    OL Chris Hall - Undrafted
    OL Michael Huey - Undrafted
    OL Kyle Hix Undrafted
    Btw Dan Buckner didn't go undrafted, he's still at Arizona. $#@! him anyway.

  26. #76
    asshat WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex Shaggy Gold Club WhoooTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Guy View Post
    Btw Dan Buckner didn't go undrafted
    really

  27. #77
    asshat Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    If David Ash can be average, Texas can win the Big-12. We now have a system in place where you don't need Superman to win games.
    No we don't. I know I am rehashing another thread, but if Ash is only average, we will only be average. Now, average may be better than 7-5, but it will not win the Big 12.

  28. #78
    asshat BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? BurntOrange&White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Quick View Post
    No we don't. I know I am rehashing another thread, but if Ash is only average, we will only be average. Now, average may be better than 7-5, but it will not win the Big 12.
    If our run game is in point this year and we can average around 250 a game rushing we can win the big 12 being average. Of course he'll have to make some good throws against the better teams we play but that will come in time. I just hope people don't expect Ash to be Vince or Colt in just his second year of starting.

  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Quick View Post
    No we don't. I know I am rehashing another thread, but if Ash is only average, we will only be average. Now, average may be better than 7-5, but it will not win the Big 12.
    I'd say average is AJ McCarron, Greg McElroy, Jordan Jefferson, Craig Krenzel. Field a Top 10 defense, a Top 10 running game, get production out of your special teams and have an efficient passing game. Harsin's going to set up the passing game for success and try to keep us out of 3rd and Longs. Ash can make plays, but not consistently on 3rd downs (like VY and Colt were so good at). Our new system will rely on bludgeoning teams with the running game, having them overcommit, and then have the QB throw to wide open guys or at least single coverage.

  30. #80
    asshat TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf slams and goes hard. TexasGolf's Avatar
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    so the defense did not score enough points?

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Texas Guy View Post
    our entire OL went undrafted?

    unpossible
    We haven't had one drafted since 2008. He committed in 2003.
    Last edited by Massive Horn; 05-01-2012 at 10:09 AM.

  32. #82
    asshat kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. kevwun's Avatar
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    Coaching didn't matter with that line. Most of them were just flat out not good enough. You can't turn lead in to gold. It was the perfect storm of offensive line disasters. We recruited skinny guys who were nimble who didn't have the frame to add good weight. Mad Dog made them fat and slow, yet surprisingly weak. Then they were put in a blocking scheme that required the exact opposite of those 3 things. Recruiting evaluations, s&c and coaching were all terrible.

  33. #83
    Shaggy OOTP Commissioner Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Quick View Post
    No we don't. I know I am rehashing another thread, but if Ash is only average, we will only be average. Now, average may be better than 7-5, but it will not win the Big 12.
    That's just silly. You're acting like the QB is the only thing that matters on a team, which is the absurd crap that your average moron football fan thinks.

    And 7-5 against our schedule would require a better than average team.

  34. #84
    asshat hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga slams and goes hard. hpslugga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eskimohorn View Post
    I'd say average is AJ McCarron, Greg McElroy, Jordan Jefferson, Craig Krenzel.
    And you can add other guys there too. Nate Hybl won a freaking Big 12 title and a Rose Bowl. Matt Mauck won an SEC title and an MNC, as did Chris Leak. Does it help to have a good-to-great QB? Of course it does. At the same time, however, it's not a requirement as long as you have a staff that's smart enough to know when (and how) you need to work around not having one.

  35. #85
    asshat Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Kid Quick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurntOrange&White View Post
    If our run game is in point this year and we can average around 250 a game rushing we can win the big 12 being average. Of course he'll have to make some good throws against the better teams we play but that will come in time. I just hope people don't expect Ash to be Vince or Colt in just his second year of starting.
    We had similar stats against against Ok St, Kansas St and Baylor and lost all three games. David Ash is a sophomore who will have been in the system for four semesters leading into the fall, which is as long anybody else on campus. Either he takes a big step forward or we are going to be average again.

  36. #86
    asshat S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11 slams and goes hard. S11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Quick View Post
    We had similar stats against against Ok St, Kansas St and Baylor and lost all three games. David Ash is a sophomore who will have been in the system for four semesters leading into the fall, which is as long anybody else on campus. Either he takes a big step forward or we are going to be average again.
    KSU was close. BU and OSU had the D and ST give up uncharacteristic totals against elite offenses.

    Is it some slam dunk UT would win the Big 12 with an average performance at QB? Not at all. However with some help it could happen.

    For UT to reach the next level they need better QB play than what they have post-colt had. That said with the right circumstances and some solid D UT could win it. It would be repeatedly winning ugly like UT did in College Station and like KSU did in 6 games last year but it could do the trick. Had they held on vs OSU it would have won the title for KSU. OSU would have 2 losses (if ISU still wins) and KSU would have had just the loss to OU. KSU is the epitome of average running qb + D + kicking game.

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