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Thread: Northwestern Football Players Unionize...what's next?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    I know how it's practiced. I also understand its flaws.
    Have you ever practiced it?

    Seriously. Unless you're on a 1 man mission to change the account system that many countries in the developed world use then why are you wasting your breath?

    For the system that is in place there are both profits and losses. You don't just exchange goods from one center to the next because they are each responsible for their own profits and losses. You pay for the goods/services you use no matter who it comes from. You do this because of the tax code. Good luck in your quest to change that.

    I think it would be more fruitful to discuss the subject given the constraints of the FASB and the US tax code.

  2. #152
    Shaggy OOTP Commissioner Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry's Avatar
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    Dude, you're not even disagreeing with anything he's saying. You are explaining why it's bull$#@! after he tells you it's bull$#@!.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimbo View Post
    Why not?

    Consider the "farm system" model. Your local favorite team -- the Denver Broncos, naturally -- opens up a handful of franchises. The purpose of these franchise is not merely to develop young players out of high school, but also to develop young coaches. Rather than rolling the dice constantly on a ever-rotating treadmill of NFL rejects for John Fox's eventual replacement, you have this farm system where you're scouting out good and innovative coaches, giving them better jobs than they'd have in the local ISD where they don't have to also teach Economics to bored 17-year-olds, and wait to see which cream rises to the top. If a young coach of your NFL team has a bad year, you can relegate him back to the minors, where he still has name recognition and can learn some new things in a less-demanding and more dynamic environment.

    There's no particular reason why the coaches of college teams are going to be better than those in the minors. Obviously, at first you won't have coaching staffs as good -- but down the road, ten, fifteen, twenty years later, I bet the median for the minor leagues vastly exceeds the expertise of the typical college coaching staff.

    There are far more good coaches out there than there are opportunities for good coaches, and far too few opportunities for young coaches to learn and develop on the job. This solves those problems as well.
    You might be onto something, but the biggest obstacle is having sufficient motivation for Pat Bowlen, Jerry Jones, et al, to invest a hundred million into those franchises and then also paying top salaries year after year to compete with NCAA teams.

    Because if you don't match the salaries that the NCAA offers, and I'm an up and coming coach like a Chad Morris or Art Briles or Kirby Smart, I'm taking the NCAA job that pays more. I doubt Jerry wants to pay a few million a year for his Dallas staff and another few million a year for his AAA staff.

  4. #154
    asshat Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhawk View Post
    Have you ever practiced it?

    Seriously. Unless you're on a 1 man mission to change the account system that many countries in the developed world use then why are you wasting your breath?
    I'm not trying to change it. I'm trying to point out the flaws and why the lemmings shouldn't take athletic department profit/loss statements at face value.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry View Post
    Dude, you're not even disagreeing with anything he's saying. You are explaining why it's bull$#@! after he tells you it's bull$#@!.
    I think that is happening a lot in this thread.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    No, the $#@!ing PUBLISHED RESEARCH ARTICLE that's linked IN THE DEADSPIN article is RESEARCH.
    You've got to be kidding me. A single article from 1992 that focuses on a single school's finances at a single point in time is "research?"

    Again... the fact that Deadspin linked to it should've been your first red flag...

    http://people.wku.edu/dennis.wilson/...Financials.pdf <-- This. This right here. THIS LAME ASS $#@! IS YOUR "RESEARCH?"

    Y'all should be $#@!ing embarrassed.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by naked_bongo View Post
    No, the research referenced in the piece is research.
    No, it isn't. It's a glorified message board post. A PDF blog entry, from the days before blogs. Statistically irrelevant, out of date, and makes sweeping generalizations with no data to justify them.

    The "research" referenced in the piece is an obvious piece of garbage. I would not wipe my ass with the paper it's printed on, even if you printed it on high-cotton 3-ply ass-wiping paper smelling of roses.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Mutha View Post
    You might be onto something, but the biggest obstacle is having sufficient motivation for Pat Bowlen, Jerry Jones, et al, to invest a hundred million into those franchises and then also paying top salaries year after year to compete with NCAA teams.

    Because if you don't match the salaries that the NCAA offers, and I'm an up and coming coach like a Chad Morris or Art Briles or Kirby Smart, I'm taking the NCAA job that pays more. I doubt Jerry wants to pay a few million a year for his Dallas staff and another few million a year for his AAA staff.
    The obstacle gets removed when the owner realizes that such a system has additional revenue potential in the following ways:

    1. If the system itself is profitable, it's free money.
    2. If the system provides employment for locals, it provides community goodwill.
    3. The system helps to develop talent, giving the org an edge in being able to win more games, generally increasing the franchise value.
    4. Simply increasing the franchise value through the creation of new assets.
    5. Increasing the marketing appeal of the organization by including more local talent, coaches and players.

    That's just off the top of my head.

    I think the real obstacle is just good old fashioned laziness, having one's head in the sand, being afraid to try something different. You know who'd really kick ass with a farm system? The Chargers. First, they're already familiar with baseball around here. Second, there are too many talented kids and not enough football schools to go around in SoCal. Third, lack of competition from LA means they'd basically be able to reign the entirety of SoCal. Their problem, though, is the same as Jerry's: They're not the brightest bears in the woods, the folks running the org.

  9. #159
    asshat Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine's Avatar
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    You haven't even read it, dip$#@!.

  10. #160
    If they are successful in their attempt at unionization and are put on "salary", college football as we know it will be gone. I think pretty much everyone agrees on this.

    The reason I care FAR more about UT football (and college football in general) than any professional sport is that the players are playing for pride in their institution, their team, and themselves. Naturally they all want a shot at being a professional but when they're wearing a UT, OU, LSU......etc. jersey they are motivated by the desire to win. Once you introduce money into the equation that all goes out the window.

    Chris Johnson has been making statements to ESPN recently that he feels like he's being misused by the Titans, having his prime wasted on a team that's not winning, and intends to explore the free agent market over the offseason. In other words, he doesn't give a $#@! about his teammates, the organization, or the fans. He wants more money, more carries, and he wants it all right now. This is what turns me off from professional sports. Why should I buy tickets, tailgate before games, and make donations to a school/athletic department when the people involved have no loyalty to the institution? If college players follow the same path I will lose interest quickly.

    And once the football players are employees instead of student-athletes, the universities would presumably have the right to let them go for non-performance? How about for career-ending injuries? Assuming that David Ash can't come back due to recurring concussion symptoms, would UT have the right to terminate his "contract" and let him fend for himself? A few pages back someone reposted something from Reddit where an NU player claimed that unionization was mainly an attempt to cover future medical expenses. My response to that would be to check out how "covering future medical expenses" has worked out for the US steel industry (whose union is sponsoring this action by NU players). Universities should be responsible for medical expenses of their athletes while they are enrolled and playing, but putting them on the hook for costs after the players graduate is a recipe for disaster.

    On the other hand, I agree 100% that individual student-athletes have a right to jersey and memorabilia sales that uses their likeness. If the university is selling merchandise based on your outstanding performance then you should get a cut of the profit. Perhaps VY wouldn't have filed for bankruptcy if he got 30% of ever #10 jersey ever sold.

  11. #161
    Shaggy OOTP Commissioner Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimbo View Post
    You've got to be kidding me. A single article from 1992 that focuses on a single school's finances at a single point in time is "research?"

    Again... the fact that Deadspin linked to it should've been your first red flag...

    http://people.wku.edu/dennis.wilson/...Financials.pdf <-- This. This right here. THIS LAME ASS $#@! IS YOUR "RESEARCH?"

    Y'all should be $#@!ing embarrassed.
    Rascher's study is at the bottom of the Deadspin article and is from 2013. The WKU study is also perfectly valid and you did nothing to rebut it in any way whatsoever.

    You can click here to download.
    Last edited by Huckleberry; 01-28-2014 at 03:45 PM.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimbo View Post
    The obstacle gets removed when the owner realizes that such a system has additional revenue potential in the following ways:

    1. If the system itself is profitable, it's free money.
    2. If the system provides employment for locals, it provides community goodwill.
    3. The system helps to develop talent, giving the org an edge in being able to win more games, generally increasing the franchise value.
    4. Simply increasing the franchise value through the creation of new assets.
    5. Increasing the marketing appeal of the organization by including more local talent, coaches and players.

    That's just off the top of my head.

    I think the real obstacle is just good old fashioned laziness, having one's head in the sand, being afraid to try something different. You know who'd really kick ass with a farm system? The Chargers. First, they're already familiar with baseball around here. Second, there are too many talented kids and not enough football schools to go around in SoCal. Third, lack of competition from LA means they'd basically be able to reign the entirety of SoCal. Their problem, though, is the same as Jerry's: They're not the brightest bears in the woods, the folks running the org.
    I just don't see how it could be profitable. Where is the money going to come from to pay the 18-21 year old players, the coaches, trainers, pay for (or rent) facilities, travel, etc. Is CBS/Fox going to pony up a few hundred million for TV rights for a minor league? And if it's not going to be profitable, how is it going to increase franchise value?

    I guess they could have them play during the NFL offseason and leverage some of the infrastructure and resources already in place. You want to see how your hotshot OC would do as a HC? Give him the reins of your minor league team during the summer. Maybe get some TV revenue and attendance numbers during the spring/summer when football fans need a fix.

    Hell, maybe even schedule some games with CFL teams to get some cross-marketing going, or maybe incorporate them into the minors... Would be a real bitch, though, if you were a minor leaguer who got called up to play, you might have to play for about 10 straight months...

  13. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Rimbo View Post
    and then commies! commies everywhere!
    Pinko commies! It's the Domino Theory taking over sports

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Player Preferred View Post
    Does the Pope $#@! in the woods? Do you know of any unions where collective bargaining isn't the primary focus?
    Does the State of Texas actively participate in collective bargaining, that is what I am getting at.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimbo View Post
    This is, to me, absolutely the best possible solution to the issue: A proper farm/minor league system like baseball has, rather than using colleges as the only minor league. Sure, the quality of the sport in college may decline, but that's a non-issue; Army-Navy are two shoddy football teams, but it's still one of the biggest games in all of the NCAA.

    There are so many ways that this is the only right answer -- more money for teams, more opportunity for players, and more integrity for college -- that it's not even worth discussing other options in comparison.

    The only real problem with it is this: Nobody wants to take that first step, to be the mouse that puts the bell around the cat's neck...
    Except the first step has been taken...world league of american football/nfl europe. Developmental leagues typically don't pan out finacially because they are the limbo between passionate college fanbases and talented nfl rosters. Nobody really cares to watch the b-team.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedeviledegg View Post
    Yep. Turn the Texas Longhorns into the football equivalent of the Round Rock Express? I don't give a $#@! about them.
    This is pretty much my thought. Pay them a stipend of sorts above and beyond tuition, housing and books but very few athletic departments would be able to handle any substantial payment.

    Perhaps you just let players share in profits from jersey/likeness/autograph sales. Again, though, what's stopping a wealthy alum from paying a 5-star recruit $250k for one autograph?

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry View Post
    Rascher's study is at the bottom of the Deadspin article and is from 2013. The WKU study is also perfectly valid and you did nothing to rebut it in any way whatsoever.

    You can click here to download.
    I just go through reading that study.

    It is interesting.

    All the findings in the paper are situated on the finding:

    "the school had an alleged athletics deficit of about 1.5 million dollars. The findings presented in this paper dispel this notion. Moreover, once impact of athletics on general student enrollment are included, athletics at WKU provide, in total, a net subsidy to the University."


    The idea of further enrollment at WKU over 22 years ago may have been a lofty dream however, in todays world there is hardly a D1 school that is not at capacity or one that would not require serious infrastructure investment for further expansion. Texas had been at capacity for over 50 years. Another point which the article hinges is the significance that student fees place on athletics. That is aid, tuition, board, etc. The article states that these costs account for 47% of the athletic budget expenditures, however in todays world, they only account for 6.01% at the University of Texas.

    The arguments by the article have little bearing in todays world.


    The cost of plus one, is not a logical or reasonable argument.
    Last edited by Silky Johnson; 01-28-2014 at 04:38 PM.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll_Delany View Post
    I am asking out of interest, because I am ignorant of Right-to-Work state laws, but could the players (now public employees) unionize in a right to work state such as Texas? I am not aware of any union that represents public employees in Texas.

    teachers union ?

    fireman's union ?

    bernard's union ?

  19. #169
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    ncaa makes billions and billions off the back of free labor, $#@! them.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by tx 3 putt View Post
    ncaa makes billions and billions off the back of free labor, $#@! them.
    ah yes... ok then... Now let's consider some more tangible issues.

    As for public universities, they are considered state universities not private businesses. Anyone who works for a state university is considered a government employee. Federal law does not recognize the right of state, governmental employees to unionize. It is up to each individual state whether to grant its employees this right. As of now, some states permit its public university employees to unionize under certain conditions. Others do not. If unionization were to be applied across the board as to all public institutions, the legislatures in those states wishing to grant its public university employees the right of collecting bargaining would have to pass uniform legislation. This is to insure the playing field stays relatively even.

    Since federal law does not recognize the right of state, governmental employees to unionize, funding for those employees would necessarily need to come from the state coffers. In Texas, it is just not the University of Texas who would be affected, but aggy, Texas Tech, UTEP, Houston, UTSA as publicly supported universities playing D-1 football. The funding would have to not only cover whatever salary is decided, but health care, job conditions, retirement contributions, if applicable, and long and short term disability payments as well. Could this student-athlete government employee union collectively bargain for a portion of the proceeds received by universities from television contracts, bowl payouts and conference distributions?

    Where would the proceeds come from to fund these government employee unions? Tax increases? If the revenue comes from TV contracts, gate receipts and the like, since different conferences are in play how are the equities balanced? I don't like Robin Hood for high school public education. I sure as hell am not going to like money that could be coming into my university going to subsidize athletes at aggy, Tech, etc.

    Then, of course, you would need to place a dollar value on the education and benefits received by the now, union employees (and not student athletes). This is for taxation purposes. Any benefits received by the employee is considered taxable income and would by necessity, be taxed. States that impose a state income tax would also take a portion.

    Now, let's suppose this National Collegiate Players Association (NCPA), the non-profit group trying to push this thing through, exerts pressure and influence on high school kids to only sign with schools who are part of this "unionization movement." Then, you are looking at an attempt to interfere in private contract negotiations which could fall under the auspices of an antitrust violation.

    If change is wanted, then have the NFL, who in 2011 implemented its own collective bargaining rules and until 2021, a high school player cannot enter the draft until 3 years have elapsed from his graduation from high school, start up a minor league. They won't of course for financial reasons and health care reasons.

    The Northwestern situation is a tempest in a teapot which in all reasonable likelihood, will not have long term or across the board ramifications.

    TL/DR -- The Complications are many, the viability unlikely.
    Last edited by Lidig8r; 01-28-2014 at 05:37 PM.

  21. #171
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    NOW THAT IS SOME HIGHER LEVEL DISCUSSION!

    pos rep.

  22. #172
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    I dont want to see kids get paid, period.

    There are already tons of loop holes for them to get money.

    As soon as we start giving guys like Mike Davis a paycheck.. the greatness of the college game is $#@!ing over.

    Most players wont be willing laying it out all on the line for the school they play for anymore. They will only try hard enough to secure their next paycheck.

    This is an extremely slimey can of worms that will potentially open and has enough strength to change the college game for the worse.

    I understand that they want to be paid because the school is making a ton of money.. but honestly, what the $#@! else would these kids be doing without a free ride to college with all the special treatments they get? They would all be slanging dope or working at $#@!ing CVS. Ive never heard one player say that they appreciate the scholarship and the other amenities they receive as athletes. Its always about "give me that cash".

    $#@! everything about that.
    Last edited by Gurrry; 01-28-2014 at 05:42 PM.

  23. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    And here's your big flaw -- SMU and the SMU athletic department are the same entity. SMU charging their own football program $3.4M a year for tuition is nothing but just shifting money around in a pile.

    If I pay myself a salary for mowing my lawn, that's not a financial transaction. I'm not richer because of it.
    You record the transaction regardless of business unit or entity. Thats GAAP.

    The athletic department had to be charged because the education business unit incurred losses that must be accounted for. The athletics department at TCU costs the University 125 tuition checks each year. TCU has an acceptance rate of 37.6%, undeniably those positions could be filled by tuition paying students.

    The athletic department can pay for them or the University can log them as an opportunity cost. The net result is the same.

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Lidig8r View Post
    ah yes... ok then... Now let's consider some more tangible issues.

    As for public universities, they are considered state universities not private businesses. Anyone who works for a state university is considered a government employee. Federal law does not recognize the right of state, governmental employees to unionize. It is up to each individual state whether to grant its employees this right. As of now, some states permit its public university employees to unionize under certain conditions. Others do not. If unionization were to be applied across the board as to all public institutions, the legislatures in those states wishing to grant its public university employees the right of collecting bargaining would have to pass uniform legislation. This is to insure the playing field stays relatively even.

    Since federal law does not recognize the right of state, governmental employees to unionize, funding for those employees would necessarily need to come from the state coffers. In Texas, it is just not the University of Texas who would be affected, but aggy, Texas Tech, UTEP, Houston, UTSA as publicly supported universities playing D-1 football. The funding would have to not only cover whatever salary is decided, but health care, job conditions, retirement contributions, if applicable, and long and short term disability payments as well. Could this student-athlete government employee union collectively bargain for a portion of the proceeds received by universities from television contracts, bowl payouts and conference distributions?

    Where would the proceeds come from to fund these government employee unions? Tax increases? If the revenue comes from TV contracts, gate receipts and the like, since different conferences are in play how are the equities balanced? I don't like Robin Hood for high school public education. I sure as hell am not going to like money that could be coming into my university going to subsidize athletes at aggy, Tech, etc.

    Then, of course, you would need to place a dollar value on the education and benefits received by the now, union employees (and not student athletes). This is for taxation purposes. Any benefits received by the employee is considered taxable income and would by necessity, be taxed. States that impose a state income tax would also take a portion.

    Now, let's suppose this National Collegiate Players Association (NCPA), the non-profit group trying to push this thing through, exerts pressure and influence on high school kids to only sign with schools who are part of this "unionization movement." Then, you are looking at an attempt to interfere in private contract negotiations which could fall under the auspices of an antitrust violation.

    If change is wanted, then have the NFL, who in 2011 implemented its own collective bargaining rules and until 2021, a high school player cannot enter the draft until 3 years have elapsed from his graduation from high school, start up a minor league. They won't of course for financial reasons and health care reasons.

    The Northwestern situation is a tempest in a teapot which in all reasonable likelihood, will not have long term or across the board ramifications.

    TL/DR -- The Complications are many, the viability unlikely.
    Too long/still read good stuff.



    I think the whole situation is bad for the players but the outcome is going to be worse. Akin to the EA NCAA Football franchise, players got next to nothing, future players will get nothing, no more game will be produced with player likenesses and everyone loses.

  25. #175
    asshat pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard. pacman slams and goes hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurrry View Post

    Most players wont be willing laying it out all on the line for the school they play for anymore. They will only try hard enough to secure their next paycheck.
    Seems you think we are already at this point and I tend to agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurrry View Post
    Ive never heard one player say that they appreciate the scholarship and the other amenities they receive as athletes. Its always about "give me that cash".

  26. #176
    Maybe they could do a deferred payment plan.

    For every game you start, you get $500. As a scholarship backup, $250. As a walk-on back up, $100. It goes in an escrow account. Throw in financial penalties for eligibility problems (academic, behavior, drug, etc). The day after your final game, you get the money plus accrued interest.

    They'd still be student-athletes while playing, still have to go to class to stay eligible, but they'd get a nice parting gift while being shown the door. Having that money in hand at graduation, with hopefully some maturity under their belt, would be far more valuable than getting a weekly check to blow on Dirty Sixth.

  27. #177
    asshat Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry can play the whole course with a 4 iron. At night. Gurrry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CooterBrown View Post
    Maybe they could do a deferred payment plan.

    For every game you start, you get $500. As a scholarship backup, $250. As a walk-on back up, $100. It goes in an escrow account. Throw in financial penalties for eligibility problems (academic, behavior, drug, etc). The day after your final game, you get the money plus accrued interest.

    They'd still be student-athletes while playing, still have to go to class to stay eligible, but they'd get a nice parting gift while being shown the door. Having that money in hand at graduation, with hopefully some maturity under their belt, would be far more valuable than getting a weekly check to blow on Dirty Sixth.
    There are definitely some interesting ways they could implement it.

    A great idea would be to have the player not get a cent until they graduate. Once he/she graduates, the money they've accumulated is all theirs.

  28. #178
    Cowboys and Texans fan ! tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lidig8r View Post
    As for public universities, they are considered state universities not private businesses.


    ut athletics is a private business, imo

  29. #179
    asshat OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? OCSpur's Avatar
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    Interesting topic. Some good points, lots of regarded ones....

    My take:

    1. Student Athletes should not be become employees and paid,in any other form than how they currently are compensated. Those that argue with the 40 hr "work week" they put in? Multiply 40hrs x avg wage a HS graduate would earn(let's say $10). Would $1600/month 12 months per year cover the current Tuition, Room & Board, Books, Tutors, etc. they receive currently as part of their scholarship to pursue a college degree? Not even close.

    2. What the Coach is paid or the University "earns" from sports has zero bearing on the issue to me. Have things gotten crazy? Yes. As some have pointed out, it is the explosion of TV contracts, some negative bias to what is "wrong" with "professional sports" and the brand power of certain conferences and universities driving this. In the case of Texas, the football program has a halo effect on the overall UT brand. It engages the Alumni base, and when successful, drives donations across the entire University, which is used fir better facilities, which attracts more(and better) students, which attracts better professors, which delivers a better education and more valuable degree, which increases the benefit to the scholarship athlete. It is the overall money multiplier effect of a successful football program at places like UT that drives salaries to the Mack Brown level(posthumous).

    3. I am comfortable with exploring minor tweaks in certain areas listed in item 1. If scholarship athletes cannot have jobs during the school year, small weekly "misc" allowance so they can get a hamburger or take a girl to a movie seems ok. Hell, let em have access to low interest loan program (to help teach money mgt) and pay it off in the summer. I'm talking small $'s here.

    4. I am open to the idea that injuries sustained during the course of servitude are the responsibility of the school could, and should, be explored more thoroughly. For the most part, I feel like schools do very well by their players health-wise(Grambling excluded). Even in cases of catastrophic injury or paralysis it seems the schools and their alumni/fan bases step up big time, but perhaps more can be incorporated into the scholarship agreement.

    5. Minor league football already exists- in Canada and The Arena League. They both suck ass. Any HS players feel so cheated by the college scholarship deal? Go for it. The NFL has zero interest or motivation to create a minor league system on their own....save for one: Global Expansion. "Hey Jr.? Don't wanna spend the next 3 or 4 years in Austin, Westwood, Palo Alto, Gainesville, etc. , getting a great education, first rate facilities, adoring fan bases, building a network for life, and banging hot chicks? Well, we've got a DEAL for you! For $30k/yr, you can play professionally for our minor league team, The Caracas Maracas in Venezuela. Sure you're on your own for living expenses, don't speak the language, won't increase your odds of making it to the NFL, you won't have a college degree, and oh, by the way, the fans are known to literally kill players for game-losing plays, but what a life experience you just can't get in college!"

    If these opinions make me old, so be it.
    Last edited by OCSpur; 01-28-2014 at 07:31 PM.

  30. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by historyhorn View Post
    My self-admitted delusion > correcting an unjust system; yet someone had the gall to call the athletes part of the "Me" generation.
    If it's so unjust why would every person here jump at the chance to be in these athletes shoes? Why do they jump at the chance to go to a place like Texas? I had to bust my ass to get the grades to get into Texas, and was truly honored when I got in. Then the hard part came next, taking 9 hours a semester and working two jobs to pay for it, and graduating in six years. But these athletes are somehow victims?

  31. #181
    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...in-labor-union

    Having already successfully advocated for the creation of multiyear scholarships, it now would like those scholarships to be guaranteed even if a player is no longer able to continue for injury or medical reasons. The group has also called for a trust fund that players could tap into after their NCAA eligibility expires to finish schooling or be rewarded for finishing schooling.
    You know what, I think I'd like to create a trust fund for myself that I can tap into as a reward for waking up each morning. Surely this is easy to do, right? After all, I used to work for a guy who had lots of money. Anyone with experience creating a trust fund please PM me.

  32. #182
    asshat Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred Shaggy Gold Club Player Preferred's Avatar
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    If you don't wake up tomorrow I'll fund it for you.

  33. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry View Post
    Dude, you're not even disagreeing with anything he's saying. You are explaining why it's bull$#@! after he tells you it's bull$#@!.
    Oh you're good...

  34. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by kps300 View Post
    http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/...in-labor-union



    You know what, I think I'd like to create a trust fund for myself that I can tap into as a reward for waking up each morning. Surely this is easy to do, right? After all, I used to work for a guy who had lots of money. Anyone with experience creating a trust fund please PM me.
    So is the goal to educate/graduate players or not? If it is, then I have no idea what is wrong with a post-eligibility funds, since the average time to degree is over six years (and most undergrad students at UT/Berkeley/Michigan are not working 40 hours a week and don't have restrictions on what classes they can take due to practice/scheduling). If you don't feel that players' education is all that important, then end the academic charade and just $#@!ing pay them and open 100 spots for academically deserving students.

    More to the point, a trust fund seems like a decent-enough way to pay players, without getting tangled up in how much player X should make vs. Y. Seriously, what do you troglodytes against paying players want, other than indentured servitude?

  35. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by tx 3 putt View Post
    ut athletics is a private business, imo
    There has already been congressional talk to reclassify from non-profit status.


    I wonder, of the $40.7 million in donations made to Texas athletics in 2012, how much would have been made knowing none of it was tax deductible?
    Last edited by Silky Johnson; 01-28-2014 at 08:51 PM.

  36. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by historyhorn View Post
    So is the goal to educate/graduate players or not? If it is, then I have no idea what is wrong with a post-eligibility funds, since the average time to degree is over six years (and most undergrad students at UT/Berkeley/Michigan are not working 40 hours a week and don't have restrictions on what classes they can take due to practice/scheduling). If you don't feel that players' education is all that important, then end the academic charade and just $#@!ing pay them and open 100 spots for academically deserving students.

    More to the point, a trust fund seems like a decent-enough way to pay players, without getting tangled up in how much player X should make vs. Y. Seriously, what do you troglodytes against paying players want, other than indentured servitude?
    My point was that there's not some massive pile of cash laying around NCAA headquarters waiting to be distributed. If the players want a trust fund on top of the compensation they already receive through tuition, room and board, tutoring, meals, training, etc. then there will have to be an increase in tuition for everyone else or an increase in ticket prices to make up the difference. It's not realistic to think that trust funds can be created in the interest of fairness without sacrifice from everyone else.

    And to answer your original question, I absolutely think that education is important. For the vast majority of football players who never wear an NFL uniform, a college education and network of alumni are about the most valuable thing they could earn from age 18-22. That needs to be their primary focus. Regarding payment of players and "indentured servitude" - the compensation that an average NCAA football player already receives through the methods mentioned above (not to mention the cash stipends) is greater than the value they provide the university in 99% of cases. What is the fair market value of Chet Moss acting as a tackling dummy for 18 weeks a year? I fully support athletes getting a cut of jersey sales or memorabilia that features their number or likeness. That way the most talented and hardest working players will be compensated for their work. But the idea that every player deserves cash payments and a trust fund on top of what they already get does not seem reasonable to me.
    Last edited by kps300; 01-28-2014 at 08:45 PM.

  37. #187
    Cowboys and Texans fan ! tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt Shaggy Gold Club tx 3 putt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silky Johnson View Post
    There has already been congressional talk to reclassify from non-profit status.


    I wonder, of the $40.7 million in donations made to Texas athletics in 2012, how much would have been made knowing none of it was tax deductible?



    the nfl and pga laugh at this.

  38. #188
    asshat TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer is probably pretty witty. or good at photoshop. or porn. TheTexasHammer's Avatar
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    So if they get paid, they're not amateurs and ineligible for NCAA competition. Amirite? Can we deduct from their stipend the value of the massive pussy they slay that they otherwise would not have slain? I mean, it's only fair. Looking at you, HistoryHorn.
    Last edited by TheTexasHammer; 01-28-2014 at 09:10 PM.

  39. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Ex View Post
    If it's so unjust why would every person here jump at the chance to be in these athletes shoes? Why do they jump at the chance to go to a place like Texas? I had to bust my ass to get the grades to get into Texas, and was truly honored when I got in. Then the hard part came next, taking 9 hours a semester and working two jobs to pay for it, and graduating in six years. But these athletes are somehow victims?
    read more about what they are saying. I think some here just lost it after seeing 'Union'

  40. #190
    asshat Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Vine View Post
    You haven't even read it, dip$#@!.
    The hell I haven't. Have you?

    Did you see if where they referenced other athletic departments? "Because we heard this rumor that like Georgia Southern and one other place totally did the same thing, we can, like, extrapolate this to the entire NCAA, even though nobody would give us any data."

    It's not research. It's crap.

  41. #191
    asshat Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry View Post
    Rascher's study is at the bottom of the Deadspin article and is from 2013. The WKU study is also perfectly valid and you did nothing to rebut it in any way whatsoever.

    You can click here to download.
    That's not a research study. It's a legal deposition, an expert witness testimony. It is little more than a sequence of assertions, where we are presumably (in the absence of exhibit B) to trust the Expert because he is an Expert. This is not research, either: it's formal argument.

    The reason I ignored it was because I assumed nobody would be stupid enough to mistake an expert witness' deposition for research. The '92 paper at least had the proper format of peer-reviewed research, if not the content.

  42. #192
    asshat Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo Shaggy Gold Club Rimbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasWolf View Post
    Except the first step has been taken...world league of american football/nfl europe. Developmental leagues typically don't pan out finacially because they are the limbo between passionate college fanbases and talented nfl rosters. Nobody really cares to watch the b-team.
    wlaf/nfl-e isn't a farm system, though; the point of a farm system is to develop local talent; the point of those leagues is to market the sport overseas. It totally defeats the purpose of a minor league, and is effectively designed to fail.

  43. #193
    asshat Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Beau Vine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silky Johnson View Post
    You record the transaction regardless of business unit or entity. Thats GAAP.
    http://www.shaggybevo.com/board/show...=1#post6308352

  44. #194
    If this concept grows legs and takes off I think the players (football and basketball) at many schools will be paid money that would have gone to fund the other sports. A few schools would have donors pitch in and now have an outlet to legally and tax deductiblely contribute to players instead of the $500 handshake.

  45. #195
    asshat hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn's Avatar
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    honestly, "college" football is a farce. it's a de facto minor league for the nfl. i say that loving the texas longhorns, and living and dying with them on gameday. obviously, i want to see the fastest and the strongest on my team at DKR, but, man, football, and college football in particular, is becoming harder for me to support.

    when college football became a massive profit center, if i had to guess, sometime in the late sixties to the mid seventies, then the horses were let out of the barn. enter the era of massive cheating and the 80s, as college football became BIG TIME. academics were shunted aside in the quest for more trophies, bigger stadia, more dollars.

    $#@!, i don't feel like going to DKR that much any more, only to subject myself to a marketing assault at 1000db in between the interminable breaks so that ads can be shown on television screens across the nation.

    it's become a professional enterprise in every area, except for the players. they are chattel, and the recruiting process is shameful. intercollegiate athletics should be about something more, made up from the student body. of course, then it wouldn't be the biggest, fastest and strongest, because a lot of those guys are barely literate dumbasses.

    it athletics, bearing the brand of the university, but it sure as $#@! isn't about the "student"-athlete. any more than stopping a playoff was about the "student"-athlete. the agruments against that (but it's finals - these kids can't spend that much time on the road, etc) were a $#@!ing sham. basketball athletes and big monday, super tuesday and every other game night say hello.

    i'll let you in on a little conspiracy theory i've had about collegiate football playoffs: i think the powers that be believe it will make it look too "professional" and worry about the little shell game they've concocted where they have this free resource upon which they can build a massive profit center. they don't want to kill the golden goose.

    problem is, everyone knows it's a sham. there's no goddamn way ramonce taylor could have approached UT without being fast and good at football. he is not an outlier. probably 90-95% of football athletes are not college material, or at least not University of by god Texas material.

    but for some (me included, for the time being) it makes us feel pride to see these young men on that field, bearing the university of texas brand, representing OUR goddamn university. what we don't realize is the savage irony and the utter cynicism that it requires to have most of these young men representing our UNIVERSITY, and our DEGREES, when the reality of the situation is that they have no business in a classroom at texas.

    college football has gone and gotten to goddamn big. and now those upon which that success is built want their cut. who can blame them?

  46. #196
    asshat hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn's Avatar
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    oh, and i $#@!ing LAUGH at all of you who point to dodgy accounting showing athletic departments running losses. then why do they keep fielding football teams and building football stadiums and selling football tickets? has a moderately successful football program at south florida HAMPERED the university's budget in any way?

    football is a profit center. if they can run a loss and write off a whole bunch of $#@!, then they sure as $#@! will. if football is so bad for these colleges and universities, then why do they continue to play the game?

  47. #197
    Shaggy OOTP Commissioner Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? Huckleberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rimbo View Post
    That's not a research study. It's a legal deposition, an expert witness testimony. It is little more than a sequence of assertions, where we are presumably (in the absence of exhibit B) to trust the Expert because he is an Expert. This is not research, either: it's formal argument.

    The reason I ignored it was because I assumed nobody would be stupid enough to mistake an expert witness' deposition for research. The '92 paper at least had the proper format of peer-reviewed research, if not the content.
    And I assumed nobody would be stupid enough to think that it was being called a peer-reviewed scientific research paper.

  48. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by hayden_horn View Post
    oh, and i $#@!ing LAUGH at all of you who point to dodgy accounting showing athletic departments running losses. then why do they keep fielding football teams
    Athletic departments lose money. Not football.

    FB at Texas pays for the other dozen or so sports.

  49. #199
    asshat hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn might be a clever chap. or know the right people. know what i mean, nudge nudge? hayden_horn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silky Johnson View Post
    Athletic departments lose money. Not football.

    FB at Texas pays for the other dozen or so sports.
    and why do the athletic departments lose money? why don't they just stop all the non-revenue producing sports?

  50. #200
    Morally Bankrupt Rogue Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r grows his own roses Lidig8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayden_horn View Post
    and why do the athletic departments lose money? why don't they just stop all the non-revenue producing sports?
    Because that would eliminate all women's sports. And Title IX won't allow that. Caselaw interpreting Title IX has established that not only does Title IX provide for opportunities have to be equal in all respects, but accommodations and conditions around those opportunities have to be equal.

    Under Title IX, one can sue when there is direct, intentional acts of discrimination. But, one call also sue under Title IX when there is a disparate impact on one gender.

    Nixon signed Title IX into law in 1972. In 1974, John Tower sponsored an amendment that would have exempted sports that produced gross revenue or donations from Title IX determination. That bill died in committee. If that amendment did not even make its way out of committee in 1974, in today's age of "enlightenment and equality," there is no way Title IX gets substantially amended, let alone repealed.

    We are stuck with it.

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