Who all here plays Full Tilt?

[Derka Derka]

I have some friends who do nothing but play FTP for a living, and that shit blows my mind. It's not because I think it's crazy how good they are. I think it's crazy that one of them won the Midnight Madness last week, and that they consistently make final tables, because FTP LOVES to fuck people. I cannot tell you how many times my AK has been beaten by A10 late in a tourney heads up pre flop. In fact, once I flopped my fucking K, and they hit runner runner 10s. It got so damn bad for a while that I was taking screen shots of it daily. This one is just terrible: 1st in chips, 18 to go in a KO. I raise pre flop with AA, guy re raises all in, I snap call his ass, and this is what happens: (if I win this hand, i am the DOMINANT chip leader with 17 to go. I bubbled this tourney.)



This one is pretty close to the money in a tourney. I have KK. I raise pre flop. Get 2 callers. Q hits the flop. Guy bets. I shove, and get called. Then the next guy re-raises by shoving. I know that he has AQ. The original caller folds, and now I stand to triple up by just avoiding another A or Q. Of course, the goddamn ace hits the turn, but not only that, it gives me a spade re draw, which of course, doesnt hit.



Heres the one I mentioned earlier:



And this bullshit, was FTP rewarding some jackass who called my shove POST FLOP, with bottom pair and no re-draw.





Ive played thousands and thousands of hands in my life, and the % of FTP hands in which I have seen sick beats and suckouts has to be at least 3-4X higher than the % in real life. It's fucking sickening.

[blacklab]

nobody wants to hear your bad beat stories, not even your moma

[Derka Derka]

nobody wants to hear your bad beat stories, not even your moma

It's really not about bad beat stories. As you can see, all of these are from a $3 w/a .30 KO, so its not like we're talking about big money here. but I have been to poker chat rooms and have seen people ask Howard Lederer about this, and he denies that this type of stuff happens for a reason. He claims its just like playing a live game, and that sometimes suckouts happen. But I wanna know if people who have played both PokerStars and Full Tilt have noticed this on FTP, because if PS is not as bad as this, then I will most definitely move my money to PS.net. The amount of suckouts and bad beats on FTP has been ridiculous, no matter if it's been done to me, or another player at the table.

[TXSooner518]

everyone thinks the site they play on is the most 'rigged.' Every site I've played on people say "Only on Full Tilt!" or "just a UB special" or "lol jokerstars" or whatever. I play both FTP and PS and haven't noticed a difference between the two.tl

The fact is, all poker is rigged. In my Sat night league last night I get headsup with a drunk guy who was marginal sober. I have 3-1 chip lead. I raise JJ, he calls with 85cc. Flop q 6 3 with two clubs. I pot he calls. Turn Jc. Check check. river 9 and we get all in. Now he is shoving constantly b/c his wife wants to go home. I call with KJ, he has AJ, and I bink a K, and am back up 3-1. Next hand, I raise T8 from BTN and he calls. FLop 873. He shoves, I call. He has 46. Turn 5. We are even, then get allin with my AJs and his Q5o. I lose.

So in maybe 40 hands headsup, we had the one out cooler card, a 3 outer, a 4 outer and a 60-40 loss, all in allin pots. poker is bullshit lol.

[CBT]

I play on both. They are the same. It just appears that its more suckouts because you are playing more hands/hour. Head over to twoplustwo if you want to learn more.

[The Governor]

I'm guessing I see more hands of poker than anyone else on Shaggy--which probably isn't a good thing--but I can tell you the "bad beats" are everywhere. The general rule is, the worse the players you're playing with, the more "bad beats" you'll see, since plenty of bad players are getting their money in as severe underdogs. The combination of seeing more hands online and more bad players ends up with more awful suckouts. There's not enough bandwidth here for me to post all mine...That said, I've taken the worst beat you can take in poker--running one outers--and I lost that hand live.

[LonghornEE]

Going to have to agree with this statement. I've taken more than my fair share of beats on FTP, but my worst beats ever "mathematically" have actually been live. Your luck will balance out in the end. Meanwhile, you should dissect your own game and see if there are any leaks that you can fill.

I'm guessing I see more hands of poker than anyone else on Shaggy--which probably isn't a good thing--but I can tell you the "bad beats" are everywhere. The general rule is, the worse the players you're playing with, the more "bad beats" you'll see, since plenty of bad players are getting their money in as severe underdogs. The combination of seeing more hands online and more bad players ends up with more awful suckouts. There's not enough bandwidth here for me to post all mine...That said, I've taken the worst beat you can take in poker--running one outers--and I lost that hand live.

[Derka Derka]

Last night, after being 29th in chips with 29 to go, and flopping top pair (10's) and shoving with K10, and being knocked out by the guy with 99 who hit trips on the river, I decided to play some pot limit omaha, cash game, on FTP. I have 7H 7S 10D 2D. Flop comes 6D 7D 6S. NUTS. Chick bets pot, I re pot, she re-pots, etc, until I'm all in. She has 5S 6S KH 9D. The goddamn turn is a 6. You gotta be shitting me. Meanwhile my friends continue to beast. 22 y/o buddy won another 7 grand yesterday. Shit.

[KC-97HORN]

I decided to play some pot limit omaha, cash game, on FTP. I have 7H 7S 10D 2D. Flop comes 6D 7D 6S. NUTS..

[Inigo] I do not think that words means what you think it means [/Montoya]

[CBT]

Playing PLO will only make your conspiracy feelings stronger imo.

[The Governor]

Playing .25/.50 isn't going to make you feel any better, either. If you're playing that low, you should just expect the bad beats. I imagine you're not maximizing your value on your winning hands, though, which is why your bad beat losing hands are so detrimental to your bankroll.

Your buddies that are killing it on FT, what are their screennames? Are they in Austin? Always good to see other guys around town doing well.

[Derka Derka]

Playing .25/.50 isn't going to make you feel any better, either. If you're playing that low, you should just expect the bad beats. I imagine you're not maximizing your value on your winning hands, though, which is why your bad beat losing hands are so detrimental to your bankroll.

Your buddies that are killing it on FT, what are their screennames? Are they in Austin? Always good to see other guys around town doing well.

Yeah, they're in Austin. Went to HS with em. one is named dokes player, and the other is albert chuns. I have a couple of buddies who play under the name silkydrip, and they win big money at times, but they are terrible players. They just have tons of money to gamble with, and only play the nuts, so they get money every now and then.

[po elvis]

the only one of those examples that was close to sick was the AK vs A10 and he still had 4 outs other than the runner runner 10's.

[The Governor]

Well if you play enough tournaments you're bound to run hot in one. Doesn't make you profitable long term though. Just keep in mind they may be losing money on the bottom line, and they only tell you about the times they (rarely) win. Just a thought.

[Derka Derka]

Well if you play enough tournaments you're bound to run hot in one. Doesn't make you profitable long term though. Just keep in mind they may be losing money on the bottom line, and they only tell you about the times they (rarely) win. Just a thought.

The two guys who are bad players are this way, but dokes player and albert chuns are easily making a huge profit. It's both of them, and this really, really hot chick who have made poker their lives for the last 4 years, and they all play together, whether its online, in Oklahoma, or in live games. They are the best players I know, and I watch their tourneys a lot, whether Im at my computer, or with them watching. But all they ever do is play, and they play well. They definitely are making money.

[Derka Derka]

the only one of those examples that was close to sick was the AK vs A10 and he still had 4 outs other than the runner runner 10's.

yeah, but this was 4 straight tourneys. Ive never had that happen in real life, where seemingly every singe time I bust out of a tourney its when I went in with the best of it.;

[TXSooner518]

yeah, but this was 4 straight tourneys. Ive never had that happen in real life, where seemingly every singe time I bust out of a tourney its when I went in with the best of it.;

lol well prepare yourself!!

[gs1]

Derka, what stakes do your friends play at cash and tournies?

I find that the rake at low stakes is too much of a bitch. The beats seem more frequent on FT because of the number of hands played in relation to real time. At least I hope that's the only reason. Last time I deposited money I lost it mostly to tilt/drunk playing/donating. Last time I tried to make a run I placed high enough in a 500k play-chip tourney to earn $2. I grinded that up to about $44 but then went up to .50/1 and like a dumbass ended up losing it when I three-bet with 8's pre and shipped it on the flop with one overcard (9) lol. I thought the guy was a big enough nit to lay down his hand but he had pocket aces. The flop ship was such a stupid overbet I'm sure he would have seen right through it and called with pocket 10's anyway. The only hand I would have gotten him to lay down in his range was AK. I'm being called by all overpairs and set of 9's obviously. Anyway, next time I deposit I'll play a lot more tourneys as to avoid tilt-monkey sessions lol.

Anyone here use pokertracker? I never messed around with that stuff.

[Derka Derka]

they play all kinds of stakes, from $75 with a 10, to $95 w/a 5, 15$ w/a 5, it just depends on what the prize pool is. Like the midnight madness is only like 10 or 20 but when they won it was for 4000, so it was a great come up.

[iamthepush]

I'm not so sure albert chuns profiting.

Username Games Played Av. Profit Av. Stake Av. ROI Total Profit Form Ability /100 Network Filter
Albert Chuns 4,131 $0 $7 13% -$252 - 65 FullTilt SNG Only x



BUT, only being down $252 after 4,131 hands is pretty impressive.

[TXSooner518]

I'm not so sure albert chuns profiting.

Username Games Played Av. Profit Av. Stake Av. ROI Total Profit Form Ability /100 Network Filter
Albert Chuns 4,131 $0 $7 13% -$252 - 65 FullTilt SNG Only x



BUT, only being down $252 after 4,131 hands is pretty impressive.

LOLWUT. This is only SNGs and the 4131 represents SNG tourneys, not hands. There are also MTTs or cash games where he could be way up or way down.

It's also funny that people treat the online reporting sites as gospel. My two biggest online cashes ($65k and a $12k WSOP package) aren't reported, and I am also missing a $20 MTT win for $1080.

[TXSooner518]

With the above caveat, PTR shows Albert Chuns at -$838 in cash through 3500 hands with an ICE COLD PTR rating of 5, and tilt factor of 97, which indicates he must be a spewmonkey deluxe.

thepokerdb shows him as having $29k in winnings (NOT PROFITS) in 2200 tourneys. So he's averaging about $14/tourney. If his average buyin is $10, he is up about $8800 in tourneys. If it is $15, he is down $2200. It says his biggest buyin is $500. So it looks like the sites show he is losing at SNGs, cash, and MTTs. Again, they aren't foolproof, but this shows what the truth is for a lot of people claiming they are 'crushing it.'

[iamthepush]

LOLWUT. This is only SNGs and the 4131 represents SNG tourneys, not hands. There are also MTTs or cash games where he could be way up or way down.

It's also funny that people treat the online reporting sites as gospel. My two biggest online cashes ($65k and a $12k WSOP package) aren't reported, and I am also missing a $20 MTT win for $1080.

Yeah, I knew it was games not hands.

[Derka Derka]

With the above caveat, PTR shows Albert Chuns at -$838 in cash through 3500 hands with an ICE COLD PTR rating of 5, and tilt factor of 97, which indicates he must be a spewmonkey deluxe.

thepokerdb shows him as having $29k in winnings (NOT PROFITS) in 2200 tourneys. So he's averaging about $14/tourney. If his average buyin is $10, he is up about $8800 in tourneys. If it is $15, he is down $2200. It says his biggest buyin is $500. So it looks like the sites show he is losing at SNGs, cash, and MTTs. Again, they aren't foolproof, but this shows what the truth is for a lot of people claiming they are 'crushing it.'

His lifetime record is probably not great, but he's been playing for quite a while, and the last 6 months - year have been very profitable. Plus, he has a tendency to win a couple grand, get drunk as hell, and piss 500 of it away that night, thus affecting his stats.

[Blotto]

officialpokerrankings.com is pretty damn accurate for MTTs and both of those guys are winning players for 2010, but not exactly crushing it. Chun is up $3600 on the year and dokes is up $8700, which means prior to his big win, he was up about less than 2K for the year. Anyone that stays in the black is a solid player, but The Govenors point from before is almost always true...no one brags about the 2 weeks stretches where they dont win shit, but it eats into the profit big time.

[Derka Derka]

dokes is probably the best player I know, but he has a ways to go. Both of these guys often play together under one name, ie, go half on a tournament, sit there together and play. But, dokes puts in the time and effort, but he also likes to gamble on just anything, and he likes to drink, and like I said, he often wins a tourney, or makes a nice cash, and then blows a few hundred after drinking. So yeah, he's no pro, but he puts in the time and effort, and he's pretty good, all things considered.

[CBT]

PTR has about 1/3 of my total cash winnings.

[Derka Derka]

Yeah, I pretty much dont care what anyone says, FT is rigged. And, having recently discovered the multitude of conspiracy theory sites dedicated to this very subject, I know Im not alone, and I dont care what anyone says. Me and a friend of mine who play a lot were recently talking about how in the tourneys, the bigger stack always seems to make ridiculous suckouts on the smaller stacks. So, I got up early in a KO, and ended up KO'ing 5 people, 3 of them on stupid suckouts, the type of which you don't expect to get 3 of in one 90 person live tournament, but the kind I have fully come to expect on FTP. On the first one, I have around 10K in chips with probably 70 people left, and a guy jumps all in. IIt gets to me, with J9 off, and I am the only one left to act. he has maybe 2500 in chips. I am thinking about, and saying to myself, "You KNOW youre going to KO this guy, call this shit." Sure enough, his KK was no match for my J9. Flop: JQK turn: 6 River: 10. Rivered the straight, and knew I would. From there on out, I still played my game, which if you wanna know the truth is pretty conservative until the blinds get highg, in which case I raise in position A LOT.

I was top 5 in chips almost the entire tourney, and stayed there until the final table when I met stacks as big as mine. Basically, you're going to be very hard pressed to convinve me that this shit is not rigged, and I fully expect to hear about a MASSIVE lawsuit against FTP in the future. IMO, the continuous shuffle is just a built in excuse to fuck people. Just claim that the continuous shuffle makes t harder to hack, and then you have a built in excuse for A10 beats AK after the K hits the flop. "Oh, we have a continuous shuffle, someetimes the cards just fall that way." Bullshit. And btw, i was KO'd from a tourney yesterday when I had AK early on with maybe 4K in chips, flop comes A58, guy bets pot, or around half my stack, I insta-shove, and am called by a guy with 5h6h and 14K in chips. As usual, 5 hits the river, like clockwork.

[TXSooner518]

Derka, man, you're wrong. There are people with millions and millions of FTP hands in computer databases, and no one can show any evidence that the RNG isn't normal.

My buddy had the same theory about PokerStars, oh the big stacks always win. So we started tracking the allins, and guess what. They don't.

You're dealing with small sample size and perception bias issues here. Wait till you play a satellite and you're down to 6 guys playing for 5 seats, then it will seem like the short stacks simply CAN'T lose. I bubbled a live tournament that paid top 5 where the short stack won 7 allins in a row, until I was the 8th try and lost. That included a shorty getting it in with AQ vs 66 on JJ6 flop and it comes running A-A. It seems IMPOSSIBLE to lose with 66 on JJ6 to AQ, but it will happen 1 time in 50. More likely than getting black on a roulette wheel six times in a row. But it feels like the goddamn lottery.

[Texas]

Yeah, I pretty much dont care what anyone says, FT is rigged. And, having recently discovered the multitude of conspiracy theory sites dedicated to this very subject, I know Im not alone, and I dont care what anyone says.

How do you convince yourself like this? You think you have this figured out because you have played a few hundred (or thousand hands)?

[UTbone04]

My cousin plays Full tilt and he usually plays around 24 tables at the same time on his 54" samsung TV. He makes a few grand a month from it which is not bad.

[Derka Derka]

How do you convince yourself like this? You think you have this figured out because you have played a few hundred (or thousand hands)?

yes, from playing several thousand hands on FTP, and seeing a VERY CLEAR, and very disturbing hike in the % of bad beats, I am convinced that FTP is rigged. I've played thousands of live hands and thousands of FTP hands, and the % on bad beats doesn't even compare. I expect to win all in with AK vs A10 live. I expect to lose with AA vs 45 off on FTP. Its fucking sad.

[LonghornEE]

yes, from playing several thousand hands on FTP, and seeing a VERY CLEAR, and very disturbing hike in the % of bad beats, I am convinced that FTP is rigged. I've played thousands of live hands and thousands of FTP hands, and the % on bad beats doesn't even compare. I expect to win all in with AK vs A10 live. I expect to lose with AA vs 45 off on FTP. Its fucking sad.

That's a pretty small sample size. You clearly have not played that long or that much. But, regardless of that fact, if you tilt this much playing on Fulltilt then why not change to another site. There are plenty of other sites you can play on.

[Texas]

yes, from playing several thousand hands on FTP, and seeing a VERY CLEAR, and very disturbing hike in the % of bad beats, I am convinced that FTP is rigged. I've played thousands of live hands and thousands of FTP hands, and the % on bad beats doesn't even compare. I expect to win all in with AK vs A10 live. I expect to lose with AA vs 45 off on FTP. Its fucking sad.

You're just making shit up at this point, and have absolutely no substantiative evidence to back up this perceived discrepancy. You probably don't log your hand history or use any analysis tools to get this kind of information, but hey, that would be too scientific and probably wouldn't tell the whole story anyway, right?

[Derka Derka]

You're just making shit up at this point, and have absolutely no substantiative evidence to back up this perceived discrepancy. You probably don't log your hand history or use any analysis tools to get this kind of information, but hey, that would be too scientific and probably wouldn't tell the whole story anyway, right?

Im making shit up at this point? Like what? name something, anything at all that ive made up? Take your sanctimonious bullshit somewhere else, asshole.

[Derka Derka]

That's a pretty small sample size. You clearly have not played that long or that much. But, regardless of that fact, if you tilt this much playing on Fulltilt then why not change to another site. There are plenty of other sites you can play on.

really? Thousands of hands is a small sample size? Those are just the hands Ive played, and the bad beats arent limited to me. Ive seen thousands and thousands more hands, and the number of ridiculous beats is fucking stupid.

Also, I uploaded funds to Poker Stars, and HO-LEE SHIT. How does that site stay afloat? the interface is ugly as fuckm the gameplay sucks, the number of tourneys sucks, the number/buy-in for the KO tourneys sucks, and the players there were unbelievably terrible. I uploaded funds once, and never will again, unless it's a private tourney. In a turbo on FTP, the first break will come no earlier than half an hour in, and by then, in a 90 player tourney, usually at least 1/3rd of the field is gone. The first break in our PS turbo was like 10 minutes in, and we still had 88 of 90 people. I also hate how when people bet on PS, instead of showing the bet right there on the screen, you have to watch the pot to see what they bet. That site is an abortion.

[Texas]

Im making shit up at this point? Like what? name something, anything at all that ive made up? Take your sanctimonious bullshit somewhere else, asshole.

The % of FTP hands in which I have seen sick beats and suckouts has to be at least 3-4X higher than the % in real life

<shank>Very intense.</shank>

[Derka Derka]

<shank>Very intense.</shank>

Yeah, because it's even possible for you to know whether or not I could have made that up. Jesus Christ on a stick, man...

[Texas]

Yeah, because it's even possible for you to know whether or not I could have made that up. Jesus Christ on a stick, man...

You're right, I should have assumed you did some statistical analysis and hand history comparison at a high confidence interval. It was wrong of me to assume you did not look at any real numbers and make this legitimate conclusion.

[Derka Derka]

You're right, I should have assumed you did some statistical analysis and hand history comparison at a high confidence interval. It was wrong of me to assume you did not look at any real numbers and make this legitimate conclusion.

what in the goddamn fuck are you even talking about. all of this is based on my own personal experience you fucking moron. jesus christ dude, does it fucking hurt to be that stupid??

[Texas]

what in the goddamn fuck are you even talking about. all of this is based on my own personal experience you fucking moron. jesus christ dude, does it fucking hurt to be that stupid??

How to make a Derka post:

1. Think something bad is happening to you. Perceptions are reality!
2. Run to the internet and tell everyone the news. It's not a generalization because it happened to me!
3. Revel in all of the attention.


Here's a cool picture:

[Derka Derka]

Im gonna take that as, "yes, it does hurt to be this stupid."

[LonghornEE]

really? Thousands of hands is a small sample size? Those are just the hands Ive played, and the bad beats arent limited to me. Ive seen thousands and thousands more hands, and the number of ridiculous beats is fucking stupid.

Also, I uploaded funds to Poker Stars, and HO-LEE SHIT. How does that site stay afloat? the interface is ugly as fuckm the gameplay sucks, the number of tourneys sucks, the number/buy-in for the KO tourneys sucks, and the players there were unbelievably terrible. I uploaded funds once, and never will again, unless it's a private tourney. In a turbo on FTP, the first break will come no earlier than half an hour in, and by then, in a 90 player tourney, usually at least 1/3rd of the field is gone. The first break in our PS turbo was like 10 minutes in, and we still had 88 of 90 people. I also hate how when people bet on PS, instead of showing the bet right there on the screen, you have to watch the pot to see what they bet. That site is an abortion.

Actually, thousands of hands is a small sample size. I used to play that many in one day. You need to be in the hundreds of thousands to millions of hands to truly make a claim that a site is legitimately cheating. Not to mention what benefit would FT get from cheating?

There are still plenty of other sites besides Pokerstars. I do agree that I'm not a big fan of the interface on that site, but everyone has a different preference in what they want. Here are 5 other sites just off the top of my head: DoylesRoom, Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet, Bodog, and Sportsbook Poker.

Also, everyone has different experience with bad beats and clearly yours is on FullTilt. My worst beats in my life have all been live. Biggest pots lost and worst odds of losing. It will affect how you play because your mindset has changed thus the reason I highly recommend changing sites just for the psychological advantage.

[Texas]

Actually, thousands of hands is a small sample size. I used to play that many in one day. You need to be in the hundreds of thousands to millions of hands to truly make a claim that a site is legitimately cheating. Not to mention what benefit would FT get from cheating?

There are still plenty of other sites besides Pokerstars. I do agree that I'm not a big fan of the interface on that site, but everyone has a different preference in what they want. Here are 5 other sites just off the top of my head: DoylesRoom, Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet, Bodog, and Sportsbook Poker.

Also, everyone has different experience with bad beats and clearly yours is on FullTilt. My worst beats in my life have all been live. Biggest pots lost and worst odds of losing. It will affect how you play because your mindset has changed thus the reason I highly recommend changing sites just for the psychological advantage.

There's no need to try to explain this to Derka; consider your audience. He fails to realize that making a sensationalist claim like "FTP puts out more bad beats than other sites / live games" is a useless, opinion-filled perception he's developed instead of a legitimate claim supported by numbers. This is a direct result of ME ME ME syndrome.

Bad beats get dealt all the time, both online and live. Poker is a percentages game, so even if someone has a 1% chance of winning then they can still hit. Should fish cold call bets with low percentages? No. But they still do, and still hit. That's why you maximize the rest of the time you're with them at the table and take advantage of their tendencies (although you're sometimes not afforded that opportunity in a tourney). Never mind the fact that you'll remember the losing end of a bad beat far longer than all of your hands that play out as they should...

[Derka Derka]

There's no need to try to explain this to Derka; consider your audience. He fails to realize that making a sensationalist claim like "FTP puts out more bad beats than other sites / live games" is a useless, opinion-filled perception he's developed instead of a legitimate claim supported by numbers. This is a direct result of ME ME ME syndrome.

Bad beats get dealt all the time, both online and live. Poker is a percentages game, so even if someone has a 1% chance of winning then they can still hit. Should fish cold call bets with low percentages? No. But they still do, and still hit. That's why you maximize the rest of the time you're with them at the table and take advantage of their tendencies (although you're sometimes not afforded that opportunity in a tourney). Never mind the fact that you'll remember the losing end of a bad beat far longer than all of your hands that play out as they should...

Actually, never mind trying to even speak at all to texas, who has severe reading comprehension issues. It's funny that you talk all about ME ME ME, yet you seem to be completely lost on the fact, that all I have said in this thread, is that in MY OPINION, based on MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES you will have a hard time convincing ME that FTP does not have action cars, or that it is not set up to create more bad beats. These are MY thoughts, and MY opinion, so you can go ahead and suck on MY big white balls.

[Chult86]

On a side note, I played 1/2 and 2/5 PLO8 at the club downtown up here tonight for 7 hours, made $1100, went home fairly happy. Decided to get a sandwich at Tim Hortons on my way home, and as I'm waiting for the sandwich to be done I notice 2 girls dancing in the window by a table ahead of me. One keeps pointing a bagel at me, so I laugh, get my food and pull forward... and she promptly pulls up her shirt showing me the goods. If only she looked like there was a chance she was over 18...

Still, fairly awesome day all things considered.

[Texas]

Not to justify Derka's point whatsoever, but when this hit against me last night I just laughed..... http://www.pokerhand.org/?5537868

Derka, I'm not even going to attempt to try to explain to you that your opinion on a claim of probability is irrelevant when it lacks... any numbers.

[unclegoose]

^^^^nice.

[Bookiebuddy.com]

If you ever want to sell Full Tilt or Pokerstars cash for $$ to bet sports let me know. I'll work a trade with you.

[MP5]

are you legit?