I want to invent something

[whosehouse]

I know this has been discussed, but I had a hard time finding anything with the search function. The google has lots of advice and books for me to buy but there's just too much junk out there to sort through. I don't want to sell shit on an infomercial- it's a lot more complicated than a slap chop.

So I gather the first step is a patent search. Who does this search? Do I need to sign a contract every step of the way (including ordering the search) to ensure the idea isn't stolen? How can I do this without paying hundreds an hour to an attorney?

[Mike_Tyson]

Certified unopened letter to yourself detailing your widget.

[zzzz]

Do you want to invent something or patent something you've invented?

[Lonestarman]

Do you want to invent something or patent something you've invented?

I speak some jive. Even woman jive, on occasion. Though with regard to woma/e/n jive that was only about a 3.2 to 4.1 on the 10 pointer female-jive-gibberish scale.

Anyway, she is looking for patent intel. If she isn't that is an 11 on the jive scale.

To the thread, there are probably others but jimmyjazz has tossed out some wisdom on this topic over the years.

[tx 3 putt]

fleshlight has already been invented, can't really be anything left to invent

[handcruser]

Certified unopened letter to yourself detailing your widget.

wrong

[TTomTerrific]

Invent a marketing plan.

[Rigo84]

I know this has been discussed, but I had a hard time finding anything with the search function. The google has lots of advice and books for me to buy but there's just too much junk out there to sort through. I don't want to sell shit on an infomercial- it's a lot more complicated than a slap chop.

So I gather the first step is a patent search. Who does this search? Do I need to sign a contract every step of the way (including ordering the search) to ensure the idea isn't stolen? How can I do this without paying hundreds an hour to an attorney?

Contact the members of the "Shaggy inventors club" I believe NCAAFBALLROX is the president

[whosehouse]

Contact the members of the "Shaggy inventors club" I believe NCAAFBALLROX is the president

I remember that thread title but couldn't get it to come up in a search.

To answer the above questions, I already have my idea, I need help patenting, engineering and marketing.

[jimmyjazz]

We have some patent attorneys around here who can talk you through some of the legal issues. I would suggest that you summarize your invention with words, drawings, and photos and submit a provisional patent application before doing much of anything else. It won't cost you much and it will buy you a year before having to submit a formal patent application.

You should also search the USPTO website for existing intellectual property related to your idea.

PM me if you'd like to discuss the generalities and I might be able to point you to some engineers who could help you develop a prototype, etc. You'll need a nondisclosure agreement in place with anyone you speak to in detail. Understand that you don't need a working prototype to obtain a patent, but a prototype would probably be necessary to obtain legit financial backing. Also, patents (or at least patents pending) are pretty much required to get VC to talk with you.

[RayDog]

You do want a signed NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) with anyone you discuss your invention with in any detail.

A patent search may cost a couple thousand dollars. You may be better off going to the USPTO.gov website and do some keyword searches of titles and abstracts looking for something similar to your invention. Keep a record of any that are similar or could be considered prior art to your invention. You will want to include them in the prior art part of your patent application (if you submit one), as the patent examiner may otherwise conduct their own search and charge you for it. They review some anyway as part of the normal review process.

If you decide to go the patent route and don't have any experience you can start by submitting a provisional patent application. The guidance on the USPTO website is pretty solid, but there are bunches of people willing to sell how to guides. Once you have the provisional patent you can shop the idea around and see if you can sell it or get funding. If nobody is interested you can choose not to pursue it. You can shop it around without any patent protection, but you risk having someone steal the idea, or say they had already thought of it. They may have already thought of it as coming up with a truly original idea is a very rare thing, so don't be afraid to drop it if you find out someone has already done it. Or, if the idea is public domain, plan on having competition if you pursue it.

When it comes to writing a patent it is a good idea to print out one that is similar to yours and use it as a model. You will probably need to hire an attorney to help with the patent (think several thousand dollars), but a majority of the content needs to come from you, since you alone know completely what you are talking about. The more you write correctly, the less hours the attorney has to spend on it, and your time is probably less expensive.

I would avoid any inventor help scams, as they generally take your money and you get nothing in return. Don't spend any money that you are not willing to light a match to, as you have almost no chance of ever seeing it again. That's just the odds.

Damn, jj beat me to it.

[jimmyjazz]

I would avoid any inventor help scams, as they generally take your money and you get nothing in return. Don't spend any money that you are not willing to light a match to, as you have almost no chance of ever seeing it again. That's just the odds.

Dead on. Most "big" ideas have been patented, and it can cost money to figure that out. I have a bunch of patents, but they're almost exclusively related to details or permutations of our primary invention, which in and of itself was mostly about the application of existing technology in a new field.

But every once in awhile . . .

[Duck of Death]

invent a sandwich.

[whosehouse]

Thanks for the advice. My invention can really only be described with words (by me anyway), as it is an electrical thing and I have absolutely no expertise in that field. So I need a good engineer sooner rather than later, I'd guess. I think I even need one to help me know which keywords to search for with the patent office, as I only know what my invention does, not what it would be called in the technical field. Like you jj, I know this technology already exists, but has not been applied in the way that I am thinking.

[Rigo84]

I remember that thread title but couldn't get it to come up in a search.

To answer the above questions, I already have my idea, I need help patenting, engineering and marketing.

http://www.shaggybevo.com/board/show...inventors+club

[James]

The first step to getting something patented (well second after having an idea) is to do a patent search to see if someone else already had the idea. The UT engineering library is a patent repository and as part of their arrangement with the patent office, they provide training for people wanting to do patent searches. They always used to do in person training, but I am not sure they still do.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/engin/patent/index.html

Of course if you are not in Austin, you might prefer to go to one of these pages:

http://www.uspto.gov/
http://www.uspto.gov/products/library/ptdl/
http://www.uspto.gov/products/librar...ions/index.jsp

[whosehouse]

Thanks James this looks like a great resource.

[hockeydude]

Thanks James this looks like a great resource.

Good lord, whatever you do, don't take advice from a football message board...

I'm a patent attorney... I'm more than happy to provide a free consult.. PM me, and I'll give you a contact #.

[RayDog]

I am curious what you think is wrong with the advice given? Or, are you just trying to drum up business?

[jimmyjazz]

Good lord, whatever you do, don't take advice from a football message board...

I advised her to speak with a patent attorney at the top of the thread. I guess she should ignore that adivce. Sucks for you.

[hockeydude]

sheesh, a little sensitive?

my post requires reading between the lines a bit...

I come to shaggy for advice on all kinds of stuff: what phone to buy, what's the best cell phone provider, good restaurants, etc.

I don't come to shaggy for legal advice, although there are some legal advice threads that provide good info.

Speaking generally, the info above, while surely well intended, is not accurate. I'll be more than happy to have a phone call with you to clarify if you real feel that's necessary? In the interim, I certainly mean no offense.

I love the self-serving/trying to drum up business accusation. LOLz....

[hockeydude]

For further clarification, I just don't have the time to post messages about patent law, which is why I offered the phone consult... however, I'll copy/paste some verbage I typed out on another message board some time ago -- it's very fun reading:


If you're really, really serious, this book is a trivial investment ($25) and will provide you with a basic (very, very basic) understanding of how to get a patent:

http://www.nolo.com/product.cfm/obje...AD5422664/310/

There are 2 main statutory requirements for a patent: 1) new and 2) unobvious. There are many other considerations, but these others are generally a lower bar/hurdle to satisfy. For instance, your invention has to be "useful" - most are. IN fact, most inventions are stupid and/or incapable of making money.. this doesn't matter, though, as long as they have some (just 'some') utility. The invention also has to be "possible" - if you're inventing a time machine, you won't get a patent. Just so you know.

Essentially and basically, everything has already been invented - people/inventors just find new and unobvious ways of using/making/producing them, etc.

So it does not matter that you're taking a bunch of stuff from the public domain and making something from it, as long as it is novel and unobvious. Now, there are some very in-depth concepts involved in these... for instance, we all know that "a fork, used for eating" already exists"... you can't later on get a patent for "a fork, used for stabbing my brother" becuase the structure of the fork itself already has been patented. Therefor, assuming what your idea is is "new" and "useful," it cannot be "obvious [to an ordinary person]"... e.g., any person would look at invention x and invention y and it would be "obvious" to them to combine them to get patent for "XY". For example, you (very likely) cannot get a patent for a 5 pronged fork. Say I have a patent for a fork having 4 prongs... very likely it would be "obvious" to add a 5th prong, so my patent would prevent someone else from getting a subsequent patent adding this "obvious" feature. In other words, just because my patent doesn't state a 5-prong fork in black and white, it doesn't mean I'm not protected... meaning, your patent has some protections that aren't necessarily provided by the explicit text/drawing. This can be a very difficult concept, let alone burden/bar to overcome - it is where legal expertise will be essential.

you MUST file an application within a year of when you "reduce to practice" your invention and make it aware to the public, try to sell it, etc., or you will be statutorily barred from getting a patent. It doesn't mean you couldn't make/use/sell whatever your invention is... it just means you couldn't keep others from doing the same thing.

you can file a "provisional (temporary) application," which doesn't have to be a complete and perfect application - it just has to be a complete disclosure of everything you would put in a regular or normal application. A "provisional" is kind of like a place holder - it would help you with your statutory stuff I mentioned above. Provisionals are also very, very cheap in comparison to the normal patent prosecution process: $~110! Once properly filed, you then have a year to get the "regular" application into the way you want it. This essentially is the drafting of the claims; the claims are the single most important part of the patent because this is what your patent protects. This is also where the legal expertise is invaluable.

You CAN do your own patent prosecution; you do not need legal expertise or represenation - you would be called a "pro se" inventor. People do it all the time. But if you have the money/means, get legal representation. Very roughly speaking, going on your own will be about $1000 + time and energy of the process... and it can take, and very likely will take, YEARs to get your patent. Getting representation will be about 10X the cost: $10K, but can be well worth it. NOTE - the time to get a patent will still be 1-2 years, with or without representation. NOTE - ~90% of patents are of little to no value in the marketplace. For legal rep, you don't necessarily need a "patent attorney"... you just need someone who is registered to practice with the US PTO, which is a patent attorney OR patent agent.

[hockeydude]

Helpful DIY links:

(inventor resources)
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/iip/index.htm
http://www.uspto.gov/main/patents.htm

(WIPO search)
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/

(best on-line MPEP search)
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=00...%3Apph92qgeqcc

(Random Patent Agent website - general patent agent services description)
http://www.webpatent.com/costs.htm

(couple of search websites)
http://www.pat2pdf.org/

http://www.google.com/patents

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/

(canadien patents)
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/c.../welcom-e.html

(European patents)
http://ep.espacenet.com/

(other misc. info)
http://patentlaw.typepad.com/
http://www.patenthawk.com/
http://www.hipla.org/links.html
http://www.aipla.com/Template.cfm?Section=Related_Links

[jimmyjazz]

No, just giving you a hard time. She definitely needs to speak with you or "one of your ilk".

It would be nice if you'd clarify what advice given was innaccurate, because most of us would probably like to learn how to avoid getting into hot water on issues like this.

[hockeydude]

No, just giving you a hard time. She definitely needs to speak with you or "one of your ilk".

It would be nice if you'd clarify what advice given was innaccurate, because most of us would probably like to learn how to avoid getting into hot water on issues like this.

just off the top of my head, the part about patent searches costing "thousands".... that's just not the case. Anyone who pays over $1000 for a patent search got jipped, presuming it's not some uber-complex technology.

and filing provisionals... ugh, this is a tricky subject. While it is true that a provisional is significantlly cheaper initially, when it is filed it basically has to be in non-provisional shape... the provisional is only good for what it discloses. If it doesn't disclose patentable features, ur f'ked... IT's a way more complex conversation.

I do agree about the inventor-help companies.... typically, they are not worth what you pay. But others might disagree. Also, some of those companies do provide a market assessment...but the quality I have seen is cheap/useless.

I digress...

No problem about giving me hard time -- my wife started doing that at 6:30 a.m. this morning... ugh

[jimmyjazz]

Let me ask you something about provisional patent applications that has never been made clear to me: imagine an inventor files a good provisional application that properly discloses the invention in its entirety. He does so roughly 6 months after public disclose of the invention. Does he now have another year to file a utility patent application, or should he do so within 6 months?

My patent attorney seems to err on the side of caution and says that, regardless of whether a provisional application was filed or not, it's best to get a formal patent application filed within one year of disclosure. Is that common practice?

[TTomTerrific]

I wasn't kidding.

Invent a marketing plan.

We are in a society that buys sham wow's for God's sake.

[hockeydude]

Let me ask you something about provisional patent applications that has never been made clear to me: imagine an inventor files a good provisional application that properly discloses the invention in its entirety. He does so roughly 6 months after public disclose of the invention. Does he now have another year to file a utility patent application, or should he do so within 6 months?

My patent attorney seems to err on the side of caution and says that, regardless of whether a provisional application was filed or not, it's best to get a formal patent application filed within one year of disclosure. Is that common practice?

You get the 1 year b/c the non-provisional will get the effective filing date of the provisional application, removing the concern of the 1-year bar. Your patent attorney's worry probably stems from the fact that "if" there wasn't a proper disclosure on something in the providional, you'd be f'ked. But your hypo assumes "properly dsiclosed," hence you'd be covered.

[jimmyjazz]

That seems to be his take on it. I imagine too many people see a provisional as an easy placeholder and they don't put much effort into fully disclosing the invention. So, it doesn't serve any purpose for those aspects of the invention that aren't disclosed.

[hockeydude]

That seems to be his take on it. I imagine too many people see a provisional as an easy placeholder and they don't put much effort into fully disclosing the invention. So, it doesn't serve any purpose for those aspects of the invention that aren't disclosed.

That's very true, especially for the small guy/single inventor entity. Here at my law firm, we don't even mess around with provisionals -- except in the rarest of circumstances, all of our applicaitons that go out the door are essentially non-provisionals. "If" we file a provisional, we still put the time/effort into it to make sure it is completely disclosed, which basically means putting it in non-provisional condition.

[Jive Turkey]

buddy of mine invented something and had it patented. he's an attorney, so he may have done some of the legwork, but he did pay a guy to make a prototype. i'll ask him how much he spend from cradle to grave, just to give you a ballpark.