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Thread: Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky

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    Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky

    On Crime and Punishment

    by Boil the Water, Walter aka Cut That Work, Jack


    Part I



    I recently had the luxury, and extreme pleasure, of re-reading the most meaningful, which also happens to be my favorite (an indication of just how sensitive to the human condition and of how important I am, no doubt) novel of Modern times; Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment.

    Before you enlightened literary experts (FCHorn, I'm looking at you) and empty, faux-intellectual shills (Grendel, my glance moves to you) chime in together and turn hipster on me, I'm well aware that The Brothers Karamazov is a lesser read, more polished and overall “better” novel as well as being the darling of literary critics. Not only do I lack the time and energy to digest a large volume of dense reading, but Crime and Punishment can still, to this day, give me butterflies, as it was my first love and it shall be my last.

    Let me preface that my re-reading of C&P was very difficult for me to undertake. This book was a very formative narrative for me and tapped within me the wellspring of existential living, of which I adhere, and sprung from the deep the driving questions that move my life:

    Mainly: What is the meaning of my living? For what am I living for?

    And

    Supplementary: Why do I do the things I do? Why do I want the things I want? What are my passions and goals? What do I strive for? Why even live?

    I realized that, because of C&P’s strong influence, the reason I’ve been slow to revisit this book and why I’ve been weary of lowering myself down into the depths of my soul was because of the sheer amount of time and energy it takes to clear an earthly schedule to allow for the proper spelunking and mining needed to find and polish all the new, funky jewels that have collected and gummed up, like sticky plaque, in the dark abscesses since my last reading.

    Putting off reading this book again, even as I devoured every other Dostoevsky novel(la), short story, and essay, along with anything I could get my hands on of Nietzsche (who commented that “…Dostoevsky is one of the few psychologists from whom I have learned something.") and Camus, (whose The Stranger is counted as my second favorite and most read resource, owing a lot to its diminutive size and readability (and that is NOT to say it doesn’t pack a punch, my dearies!)), I knew that one day I would have to read this book again and I would be forced to reevaluate the story, the message, the writing, the style, and what C&P means to me.

    Would I still feel the severe and personal rousing this rudimentary tome of existentialism stirred in me through the expert conveyance of the decay and dejectedness a self-aware man feels, caught between the unfeeling and unworthy masses, the weak, “material that only exists in order by some effort by means of crossing races and stocks, to bring into the world at last one man out of a thousand with a spark of independence” and the said ‘one in a million’ flash of genius?

    Would I, an evolved and astute man, above the station of most but achingly aware of impotently existing on a rung below the elite class of the ruling and powerful, still appreciate the struggle of the self aware adult male or would I have grown fat and lazy, like a Christmas ham, on the contentment of an average, middling, and all together base life- one of mediocre (by my, perhaps lofty, standards) standing full of irrelevant trifles and minimal material gains?
    Will the foibles and follies of youth show me to be a silly and idealistic boy or would my resolve be reaffirmed and would these hitherto lifelong values and source of hope follow me into my (arguably, by most of my friends and family) manhood?

    Ultimately, I didn't want this book to have any less of an impact or lose even one glint off the constellation of brilliance and luster it once held for me, but, because I have stalled with a personal project and have “gone through every house on the block” as the addicts and derelicts say, I had no other choice but to go to the heart and home of my muse, timidly and anxiously rap on that hard and unyielding door, and see who was home.

    That is to say, a week ago I deigned to pick up C&P and allow my cold heart to love again.
    So with the anxiety of a 14 year old girl, I exhaled a nervous breath, spread my chaste rib cage and allowed Dostoevsky to again insert his cold, stiff two fingers an inch and a half in my heart (a thoroughly feminine organ, after all) and perform, once again, a come-hither motion.

    Part II




    The latest reading of Crime and Punishment was a very inspiring undertaking for me and left me with very different, but equally enthralling, inspired takeaways.

    Before, as a 22 year old, I fancied myself not unlike the protagonist, Raskolnikov. A budding sprig with many of the unavoidable foibles of youth, I thought myself a man of considerable intellect and introspection, and one of the few (oh how I hated the average dullard- I still am not altogether cured and pique when people like Slorch or Rocko begin to opine) with absolute capability to “utter a new word”, as is said, by creating a theory for which to live by (and I did succeed in creating a philosophy, rules to govern my behavior, which I took great pains to establish).

    In Raskolnikov I found my hero- a man who, not unlike your author’s beleaguered and youthful soul- mired in frustration with outward circumstances and environments and who found it difficult to exist in the Absolutes and Universals decreed by the juvenile and intellectually cheap understanding of our world. (Note the folly of my youthful logic; a young man who fancies himself bestowed with ‘absolute’ capability but lashes out when ‘absolutes’ are spoken! I still, however, reject the premise of absolutes outside of mathematics on the charge that it is ignorant and irresponsible to do so. I begin to digress…)

    But, unlike Raskolnikov who could only wade in egoism and who mostly remained on shore, marooned by his miscalculated weakness, emotions, and nerves, I was a young but seasoned mariner, ready and willing to “spit on my hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats”.

    Beyond all the good, those strong down winds that helped me sail successfully through life, I harbored all the shortcomings, that short sighted, myopic worldview enabled by living fully in the self and ego and was thoroughly disgusted when Raskolnikov would not power through his flawed human condition, take his $#@! out of his heart, and dismiss the notion he was a Great Man, “a Napoleon”, and resist turning himself in. I couldn’t- and most importantly, I wouldn’t- understand.

    It wasn’t until this most recent reading that I now understand. Because Raskolnikov was not a Great Man- not a leader of terminal men- once he crossed the threshold and transgressed law, he lacked the ability to maintain his head and was subsequently left with three choices:

    Madness (of which he flirted with and led on as if she were his betrothed)

    Suicide (of which the true Hero, I humbly submit, Svidrigailov would eventually submit to*)

    and

    Repentance (which Dostoevsky seems to argue is, ultimately, redemption) with the knowledge moving forward that one, as a man of limited capabilities, is to stay in one’s lane and stay out of the way of grown men’s (the parlance of my day) travels and travails.

    By turning himself in and opting for redemption Raskolnikov effectively opted, through truncating the theory of his being a Great man unburdened to the arbitrary rules and laws created by flawed and imperfect men in a world we can’t fully understand, for a mediocre, albeit easy and comfortable, life with close friends and family who love him at his bosom. He admitted to himself his true worth, that he a meaningless existence.

    As a delusional, 22 year old student (again, not much unlike dear Rodion- especially in my gripping good looks, he-he-he), who fancied himself a “remarkable” and “great” young man, I could not follow my, up until then, Sherpa on that weak, flat, easy and well paved path.

    I would rather have died.

    And, still, as pride grips me and I retain enough of that youthful vigor (at the ripe old age of 28) to continue to hold out hope- a hope to redeem what I consider to be god given, innate strengths and excellence in abilities and attributes- and I still stand in defiance.

    I understand, this time around, why Raskolnikov must do what he did, but I reject Raskolnikov’s decision and, still, would “break a sword over my head and kiss the pieces” before capitulating.**

    Part III




    Come with me as I turn my full and current attention to the technical details; the craft, the literary merit and the actual writing contained in C&P.

    After my first reading, never had I been so moved by a literary creation and my body was rendered weak because of it. I dropped the book, completely fatigued from the reading, and rolled over exhausted and in need of a drink or a cigarette, as if Dostoevsky had just $#@!ed the $#@! out of me.

    But, just as it is after great sex, my memory was given to short term and immediately after reading I had forgotten exactly how all the pieces and devices had been engineered together to create such a dynamic machine. All I remembered, in fact, was the end result and I was content to remain ignorant as long as I had that product and, owing to that, after this current reading, I was surprised at the actual writing, character development, character arcs and story line, and how Dostoevsky employed his unique abilities.

    I don’t want to lurch into the dry and technical details of writing and bore the remaining five Mensch’s who have come with me this far, so I will speak to a few brief, but meaningful, points.

    The most glaring aspect of Dostoevsky's writing that immediately jumped out at me, and what I completely missed the first go around, was the generous use of tension to move the story forward. Dostoevsky constantly and expertly built tension to keep fluid what could have easily been, because of the emphasis on psychology and the cerebral, a plodding and heavy-footed plot and this adroit use of conflict made for a smooth ride.

    At times, though, Dostoevsky was almost vulgar in his excessiveness (examples of this were the constant cliff hangers at the end of chapters where someone was always showing up or something was revealed- a kitschy technique honed by the good people at Days of Our Lives and General Hospital) and there were times when it felt aged and archaic.

    Next, something I noticed was that the shock and awe of a few scenes were tempered the second time around. The prevalent use (and some would argue, abuse) of ‘stream of consciousness writing’, while very much a Dostoevsky staple, seems to have been muted by the last few years of reading contemporary writers who make their bones with overt and, increasingly, obscene and anything-goes-streams of illogical, shocking, and random musings from writers like Chuck Palahniuk, B. Easton Ellis, and Hunter S. Thompson.

    And lastly, an unaccredited major influence on my own personal writing style and "voice" that I must have subconsciously picked up from Dostoevsky, I really enjoyed his elaborate and garrulous descriptions- the sing-songy, melodious rhythm- and, especially the postulations and suppositions handed out in Socratic dialogue's, and I was reminded numerous turns of phrase, tonal direction, or word choice and realized the reason why everything I write, no matter the intention or genre, seems to err on the side of meta-fiction.


    Epilogue



    New and delicious tastes, accompanied with the staple flavors digested from my first read, satisfied a few of the nutrients my being was starved of and I left this book content, that still, there is a lot of intellectual bread I have yet to sniff because of how quickly I’ve filled up on these first two courses.

    But for now I am full again. And from the belly of a fat man, I say to you:

    To the well-read and learned man- Do not feel unworthy and unqualified to critically critique. Share with me your thoughts and opinions!

    To the budding novelist- Do not let the weight of the great literature already published encumber and shackle you but, instead, hoist these works high and, like a flag of independence, give honor to creative freedom and the existence of creation as an option for humanity.

    and To you Great Men, you “Napoleon’s” among us- Let the hug and embrace of this work motivate and inspire. As rejuvenated men emboldened with the reminder that we can, and must if we are, in fact, worthy of it, create our own meaning in this savage jungle.





    Notes (from the Underground? He-he-he)


    *Another essay entirely is required to expound and explain the question and topic of why Svidrigailov is the tragic hero and should be the celebrated and revered man in Crime and Punishment

    **One must always take into consideration the possibility that perhaps the author is already showing the signs of age and the pussification that a dwindling of opportunity and the loss of grains of sand creates, because while he maintains that to die would be a more noble and honest ending, the reader must note that he has taken measures to “hedge his bets” so to speak, by having a kid for, if nothing else, a cheap, biological success and an automatic extension to further the chance to “spark genius” as was said.
    Last edited by CutTheCrackJack; 04-08-2011 at 11:47 AM. Reason: spacing of mikes mom

  2. #2
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    Holy $#@!. WAaaaay TL/DR, $#@!.

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    I think I should have just saved some time and read the book again instead.

    In all seriousness, it is one of my favorites. But I have nothing to add in light of that dissertation.

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    irony, long book and a long post. cliff notes, how do they $#@!ing work?

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    I'd like to pull some fresh rug.

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    thank you for posting that, as a common dolt I have never read "C & P".
    I have contemplated it many times in the last few weeks, but never done the deed, and started reading "Walden" instead.
    I will download and read this as soon as walden is completed

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    I farted

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    Well, obviously Dostoevsky has had an effect on you. A lot of C&P reviews amount to "TL/DR..."

    Timely because I just finished this book for the second time. I'd forgotten about his use of dialog. Lots of it. I think your analysis is insightful, and I'm jealous that you appear to have gotten a lot more out of it than I did.

    I liked Brothers a lot more (as you infer I suppose I'm not alone), and have read it several times. C&P I originally had to read in school, so on my last trip I threw it in my bag for another go. I enjoyed it, but it is still my least favorite work of his.

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    ah yes, mrs. 'gask-alnikov'

  10. #10
    Great great $#@!ing post ctcj...will address it later...just wanted to get that out there...will we discuss some yummy Hegellian/christian themes...

  11. #11
    You are a braver man than I. After he murders her and starts wandering in the sun and becomes paranoid, I couldn't take it anymore. I know the complete story by only reading synopsis. I do disagree with your Nietzsche-ian outlook that he is better in absolute sense. Even though I agree that human worth is what we make of it, there are absolute boundaries that keep man as man and God as God. A human cannot enter God's domain, and I agree with the protagonist accepting his boundary and thereby becoming more perfect human, and hence increasing his worth.

    I do love books that go into character studies, such as Gugol, and pathos, such as $#@!ens. But I am such a weakling that even $#@!ens turns my stomach sometimes. I have low fortitude for injustice and maliciousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GringoSalado View Post
    Well, obviously Dostoevsky has had an effect on you. A lot of C&P reviews amount to "TL/DR..."

    Timely because I just finished this book for the second time. I'd forgotten about his use of dialog. Lots of it. I think your analysis is insightful, and I'm jealous that you appear to have gotten a lot more out of it than I did.

    I liked Brothers a lot more (as you infer I suppose I'm not alone), and have read it several times. C&P I originally had to read in school, so on my last trip I threw it in my bag for another go. I enjoyed it, but it is still my least favorite work of his.
    The LEAST favorite? I find that hard to read after reading The Double. What about CP didn't do it for you, out of curiousity, what made it come up a bit short, IYO?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    ah yes, mrs. 'gask-alnikov'
    clever boi

    Quote Originally Posted by FCHorn View Post
    Great great $#@!ing post ctcj...will address it later...just wanted to get that out there...will we discuss some yummy Hegellian/christian themes...
    A man after my own heart...

    Quote Originally Posted by formermav43 View Post
    I think I should have just saved some time and read the book again instead.

    In all seriousness, it is one of my favorites. But I have nothing to add in light of that dissertation.
    Oh, come now, you sell yourself short. The world (and me, in this specific instance) needs to hear your unique voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by jose_medina_de_jesus View Post
    thank you for posting that, as a common dolt I have never read "C & P".
    I have contemplated it many times in the last few weeks, but never done the deed, and started reading "Walden" instead.
    I will download and read this as soon as walden is completed
    with baited breath, I'll wait...

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyesSuck View Post
    I farted
    See- we are all, to some extent, slaves to biology.

    Quote Originally Posted by AeroHorn View Post
    there are absolute boundaries that keep man as man and God as God. A human cannot enter God's domain, and I agree with the protagonist accepting his boundary and thereby becoming more perfect human, and hence increasing his worth.
    What are those boundries? Who set them and Why?

    "Accepting" his boundary, imho, was as I said, water finding it's own level. The weak (I simplify by saying 'weak' but that is to say, not Great) cannot stay too long outside of their "boundary"

    "If there is no God, than I am God." -F.Dostoevsky in Devils

  13. #13
    First:

    In context of the book and your post: anything born of corruption shall suffer the corruption, but with the caveat that corruption causes true suffering, and thus tru redemption...

    FD believed that this redemption could only come through a higher power than man, and not through a higher ideology born of man ie Hegel / nietzsche and the idea of the greater man/übermensch...or anything that places man higher than god ie socialism/communism{the brothers karamozov}...thus Rask. constant justifications to do his will as he pleased( if I kill the ladies then I could use the money for good) instead of realizing that if he was a great man he could overcome this lowly act of murder and deception and accomplish more by simply doing great works(a theme I believe Porfirry goes over)...And also no great man would sweat a murder like Rask. Of course, this is a great simplification...

    Next stop: the hooker...but first I must go put my son to bed

  14. #14
    As I have read C&P many times, I came to view the hooker, Sonya, as one of my favorite characters in the book for mainly one grand combined reason: she is the most pure, she is the one who suffers the most, she never loses faith in god, and always endures with the most love...

    As all FD novels are highly psychological in nature, it is she who demonstrates that through love of god([FD's belief anyway) and through her sufferings that she is stronger than Rask. And his belief system in the Uberman...

    Quite a turn around for the day in Russia...the godly woman prostitute who whores herself for her fathers drink show more strength and love in a belief system ( religion and god) than a man who fancies and falls for a modern day ideology that allows one to do whatever he wants for whatever greater good he believes and one that puts man above god...

    My interpretation of course...

  15. #15
    As to your Part 1

    TBK is a more epic and grand sweeping than of CP....but I would add that the Grand Inquisitor section is the finest part of TBK though I am reminded that Sonya seems to play this part in CP....

    However, The Grand Inquisitor stands on it's $#@!ing own in literary history...fantastical in design and a scene that beckons us with the idealism of beautiful religious overtones and catharsis...masterful

    "Mainly: What is the meaning of my living? For what am I living for?

    And

    Supplementary: Why do I do the things I do? Why do I want the things I want? What are my passions and goals? What do I strive for? Why even live?"

    For FD...maybe to suffer in some Christlike fashion(as per the bible)...for then and only then is true beauty observed..

    Or for others, some believe it to be addition of all the good luck one has experienced with all the bad luck one has acquired...and the sum total thereof in some manner defines your life and struggles..

    I always felt that the moment before death is when the answer finally comes to you...but you're not allowed to tell anyone...

  16. #16
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    FC- What is your opinion and analysis for Svidrigailov?

  17. #17
    He is a minor character per se and as such we don't get to view him psych. as we do Rask....we have to interpret his physical actions physiologically...ie his overhearing conversations, random acts of goodness, suicide, $#@!ing with Dunya and Rask.

    I always thought he represented the devil, temptation, corruption trying to do good things for nefarious ends, etc...and his suicide represents a loss for the devil per se and a win for christ in that goodness always wins out and badness leaves the scene in a huff...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CutTheCrackJack View Post
    The LEAST favorite? I find that hard to read after reading The Double. What about CP didn't do it for you, out of curiousity, what made it come up a bit short, IYO?
    Oops, haven't read The Double. I should have checked his biblio before I posted, I now realize I haven't read many if not most of his short stories either. So I should step back from that a little I guess.

    Maybe it was having to read and discuss C&P in class? I just didn't identify with the protagonist enough and the story to me wasn't as engaging. I obviously liked it enough to read it again, but I should probably limit my comparison to Brothers, which I've read numerous times and easily ranks among my favorite novels, and maybe the Idiot. It has been too long since I read anything else.


    edit: also, during this last read I remember thinking I should check the translation I was reading (same book I bought for the class), because some of the dialog/narrative was (more) discombobulated (than usual) vs. the other FD on my shelf.

    edit # 2: btw you and FC sound like the front-row fanboys from my Russian Lit class. JK, I've read all your posts and found them all very insightful. + rep on the way
    Last edited by GringoSalado; 04-09-2011 at 03:38 PM.

  19. #19
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    Bravo. My favorite book. I read it every few years.

  20. #20
    Great post. Been awhile since I've read Crime and Punishment, but I think you've inspired me to pick it up again. Someday I'll actually man up and read it in Russian.

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  22. #22
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    Loved C&P when I read it as a teenager. I have a weird issue though that makes me lean towards taking on personality traits of the characters in books I read (maybe not taking them on, but thinking like they do somewhat). I dare not read this again.

  23. #23
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    I absolutely love Crime and Punishment but The Brothers Karamazov is my favorite novel of all time and it's not close.

  24. #24
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    Excellent post, I always adored this book but I haven't read it in nearly 10 years, since being a senior in high school. I'm pretty sure I was the only person in my class that actually enjoyed this one.

    I'll have to pick it up and give it another read. On the same lines of existentialist writings--and I'm certain you have read it--I always loved No Exit by Sartre. Perhaps someday I'll attempt to explain why it appeals to me in a lengthy dissertation such as your own, but I honestly don't know that I could put my finger on articulating it.

    TexArch, after some of the things I've seen her do, that picture is fantastic on many different levels. And by that, I primarily mean the level of making fun of her.

  25. #25
    asshat jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxArch View Post
    is that sasha grey?


    on another note, books on/about existentialism have been a theme lately for me. I just put down "Walden" have not finished it but I needed a break from it.
    and just started C & P, 50 pages in and thus far it is written well, and has already hooked me. I will have to wait to comment further until I get more into the meat of it.

  26. #26
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    bump, I have finished this reading.

    first I have to bitch about people. then I will try and attempt to put into words my feelings on this work.

    at the lake yesterday large group that consuela and I were with started talking about film and television. while I, under no circumstances have thought any of them to be brilliant, they proved me correct.
    I was informed that oh brother where art thou " Is based on a story from the bible, I think." I did not correct this person. the subject then turned to True blood, they all agreed it was wonderful, and almost
    all of them agreed that the "hot vampire sex" made it wonderful. When I said that I have never seen it and probably never will they were mildly stunned. then asked, "what do you do while consuela is watching true blood?"
    "I read" was my answer and it was met with ridicule, as though, books were poisoning the minds of our youth. at that point I took my tablet out and started reading again.................$#@!ing people man.

    there is no way I am well written enough to provide a dissertation on this book. the emotions that consumed me while reading were anger, sorrow, joy, disgust, awe, remorse, and love
    all of the negative emotions were due to the fact that rodions "complex" drove him to ruin himself much more so than the ruin of his victims. I pulled for him, never has a murderer been a hero to me, until now.
    I hated him and loved him for the same reasons. He needed to know that he lived so much, that he had to take life to see it. And $#@! him. no man is a Napoleon, not even Svidrigaïlov. least of all, Svidrigaïlov.

    Sonya, ah, sonya. How I want thee!! Sonya could look like LHG and I would want her. Salvation to all, purity. even in her "profession", she was providing salvation to responsibilities which were none of hers.
    I know that you(CTCJ) think Svidrigaïlov, to be the true hero of this work. I want to dispute that. Sonya sir, is the end of all that is wrong. She is Mary, I cannot express how strongly I feel about that. during the
    epilogue when I thought as though she may have left Raskolnikov to save yet another soul, I nearly wept(like a woman), when I read of her illness, I wept for fear of her death, and upon her return to Rodions
    side tears welled up in my eyes. I knew that she was perfect.





    * I could continue rambling about this work, but most of what is spewing out of my mouth is gibberish. I have tried to respond to this thread multiple times in the last 2 weeks. and still to this moment I am emotionally confused and challenged.
    I will read this multiple times. I hope to be able to peel back the layers and find something new inside of it each time, as I know its in there. I fear that I lack the mental capacity to accomplish the prior.
    Last edited by jose_medina_de_jesus; 05-15-2011 at 10:46 AM.

  27. #27
    asshat CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack aka Old Freak Nasty CutTheCrackJack's Avatar
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    and ultimately what you described is the beauty of creative works of art, , generally, and great literature, specifically. I appreciate and celebrate your experience!

  28. #28
    asshat carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera is rapin errbody up in herr. carrera's Avatar
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    tldr.

    yes, i read the actual book though.

    i rather jab myself in the eyes rather than read any more russian lit.
    Last edited by carrera; 05-15-2011 at 11:39 PM.

  29. #29
    asshat jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus's Avatar
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    Carrera really? I can't believe I have waited till now to start reading Russian lit. C and p, I read Anna karenina after it was a well written work. Not on the level of dostoyevsky but good.

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  30. #30
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    i have read a fair amount of russian lit. just no desire to read more of it. i think it is taxing to read due to translation.

  31. #31
    I'd first like to say thank you again to jose, who's book ranking list is the sole reason I picked this book up. Also, thank you to CTCJ for inviting me to share my thoughts on the book.

    OK, I'll start by saying I'm not a big reader of fiction; this my first novel in 8-9 years. Secondly, I mostly read for the story, do not typically dig for the greater meaning, and all in all I'm a poor critical thinker. So I'll throw out my thoughts, but they have not been deeply reflected on, nor have I gone back through the text to clarify and test some inclinations. I finished the book a couple hours ago, and here's what I got off the top of my head, and also in response to the posts above.

    1) Sonia is absolutely the hero in this story; there can be no other. For whatever reason this quote comes to mind, "Andy Duphrene, who crawled through a river of $#@! and came out clean on the other side."

    CTCJ, I've thought a couple minutes on why you might propose Svidrigailov is the hero, and the only thing I can come up with is that he appeared to be charitable without motive. However, I can't say that with certainty, as FCHorn points out, most of his thoughts are not revealed to us. I was certain, in the moment, that he took care of the children so that he may be viewed in a favorable light with Dounia. Also, I felt he may be giving Sonia money to later her use her, and possibly the children, as leverage against Raskolnikov and Donia. I'm also not certain that he was in love with Dounia as much as he was obsessed with her as his ultimate trophy. I think he killed himself to fit FD's theme of moral crime, which brings me to #2.

    2) The definition of crime. It was mentioned once or twice that Raskolnikov rationalized that his actions were a crime only in the legal sense, and were morally sound. I think 'moral crime' is the one theme in this book that I haven't seen yet discussed. I think FD is proposing that moral crime is the decay of society. Each character guilty of moral crime was destroyed.

    a) Marmeladov was guilty of drunkenness, and paid for it with death.

    b) Svidrigailov's vice was women, he kills himself.

    c) Katerina Ivanovna's crime was pride, she goes insane and dies.

    d) Luzhin's crime is vanity. He is the only moral offender (other than Raskolnikov) that does not die. Rather, his punishment is public humiliation, which could be thought a worse fate than death for the vain. (think the movie 'Seven')

    e) Raskolnikov's moral crime is pride. His physical/psychological suffering is suggested to be caused by his conscience/body's need for remorse, however throughout the story Raskolnikov never sincerely repents. His anguish is over his blunders, the primal fear of being hunted, and the tormenting thought of eventually being placed on the level with "idiots" (I don't remember the exact wording used on that one).

    3) I'm not sure why Pulcheria had to die. This is the one death not contgruent with my theory of death symbolizing punishment. My only guess is that FD is driving home the point that Raskolnikov's punishment and suffering was extended beyond himself, to Sonia, Dounia, Razumikhin and Pulcheria.

    4) I thought it was kind of funny that FD included the smallest details in the thoughts of the characters, Raskolnikov in particular, throughout the book up until the last scene at the police station. Maybe because Raskolnikov's thoughts were so obvious by his actions in that scene, IDK.

    Wow, I could write a lot more, but this is getting too long. Perhaps I'll go back through the book a little bit and attempt to find some deeper meanings. I also need to re-read up until the murder. Up to that point, I was struggling a bit; having trouble with names, Raskolnikov's irrational thought processes, and not completely convinced I was going to enjoy such a large undertaking.

  32. #32
    So I apparently cannot edit my posts. It just occurred to me that FD had to kill off Svidrigailov for Raskolnikov to later be tempted not to confess. This seems obvious, but slipped my mind at the time of writing my post.

  33. #33
    asshat jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus's Avatar
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    svidrigailov most likely murdered his wife for much of the same reason that rodion killed for. he however sought penance by plunging himself into the river vs seeking forgiveness from god.

  34. #34
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    I do a presentation every year to the freshman honors lit class at my local high school on C&P (I've read it many times in both English and Russian). It is really interesting to hear how 14-15 year olds relate to this book, because understanding it is so dependent on understanding its historical context. Dostoevsky went from committed revolutionary to extreme Slavophile after his exile, and his deep love of Russia and his belief in its historical mission to essentially save the rest of the world through piety, suffering, and devotion to God is really hard to understand for contemporary teenagers. Particularly given his incredibly dense writing style. But I get a lot of enjoyment out of making the presentation, because when I explain about the historical context, I can see the lights go on in the kids' heads and it really adds to their enjoyment of what can be a really difficult book to read.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAhawk15 View Post
    CTCJ, I've thought a couple minutes on why you might propose Svidrigailov is the hero, and the only thing I can come up with is that he appeared to be charitable without motive. However, I can't say that with certainty, as FCHorn points out, most of his thoughts are not revealed to us. I was certain, in the moment, that he took care of the children so that he may be viewed in a favorable light with Dounia. Also, I felt he may be giving Sonia money to later her use her, and possibly the children, as leverage against Raskolnikov and Donia. I'm also not certain that he was in love with Dounia as much as he was obsessed with her as his ultimate trophy. I think he killed himself to fit FD's theme of moral crime, which brings me to #2.
    Good analysis re: moral crime.

    To your point, however, Svidrigailov is the true hero in my estimation because his integrity was harder than Reardan metal. He upholds the ideal of which Raskolnikov painfully comes up short. There is a good essay written on blogspot about Svirdrigailov I will link, but a piece that will help highlight:

    Svidrigailov is a figure whose presence throws Raskolnikov’s mental split into sharp relief by his own unwavering singleness of purpose. This man, in fact, epitomizes the theory that creates Raskolnikov’s mental turmoil in the first place. He lives for a single purpose – himself – and seems immune to moral responsibility. He is superficially suave and polite. As Raskolnikov tells him, I fancy indeed that you are a man of very good breeding, or at least know on occasion how to behave like one.” (Part 4, Chapter 1 -p.256) However, this “good breeding” is a rather thin disguise for a character so absorbed with his own comfort and pleasure that he has become utterly depraved. He is calm and rarely loses his temper, but his composure often hides plotting and conniving. He has committed several murders over the space of many years. But in accordance with the idea that the extraordinary man would merit no temporal or mental punishment, he is completely remorseless. Moreover, he is above human law, because the nature of his crimes is such that they can never be proven.
    [link]http://sesquipadalianmusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/dostoevskys-crime-and-punishment-is.html[/link]

    Further (as stated in the Sun Also Rises thread) he is the true hero because, despite the findings of "The Myth of Sisyphus", to commit suicide is the nobler option than to accept and mire in mediocrity, as defined by each individuals value system and worldview. Obviously this is all up to debate and I understand the Sonia as the hero is the most widely accepted angle, I just don't like it as much. :)

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CutTheCrackJack View Post
    I understand the Sonia as the hero is the most widely accepted angle, I just don't like it as much. :)
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  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by CutTheCrackJack View Post
    Good analysis re: moral crime.

    To your point, however, Svidrigailov is the true hero in my estimation because his integrity was harder than Reardan metal. He upholds the ideal of which Raskolnikov painfully comes up short. There is a good essay written on blogspot about Svirdrigailov I will link, but a piece that will help highlight:



    [link]http://sesquipadalianmusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/dostoevskys-crime-and-punishment-is.html[/link]

    Further (as stated in the Sun Also Rises thread) he is the true hero because, despite the findings of "The Myth of Sisyphus", to commit suicide is the nobler option than to accept and mire in mediocrity, as defined by each individuals value system and worldview. Obviously this is all up to debate and I understand the Sonia as the hero is the most widely accepted angle, I just don't like it as much. :)
    He was already mired in the mediocrity of himself and beliefs and morality....he couldn't handle the mediocrity of himself knowing he could have been much better than the leech of society he was...he is not able to endure himself whilst Sonia is able to endure all and love without conditions....

    He understands all to well his failings and maybe does an honorable thing in which there may be no honor overall....

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CutTheCrackJack View Post
    Good analysis re: moral crime.

    To your point, however, Svidrigailov is the true hero in my estimation because his integrity was harder than Reardan metal. He upholds the ideal of which Raskolnikov painfully comes up short. There is a good essay written on blogspot about Svirdrigailov I will link, but a piece that will help highlight:



    [link]http://sesquipadalianmusings.blogspot.com/2007/06/dostoevskys-crime-and-punishment-is.html[/link]

    Further (as stated in the Sun Also Rises thread) he is the true hero because, despite the findings of "The Myth of Sisyphus", to commit suicide is the nobler option than to accept and mire in mediocrity, as defined by each individuals value system and worldview. Obviously this is all up to debate and I understand the Sonia as the hero is the most widely accepted angle, I just don't like it as much. :)
    Just finished a second go around with this one. this time I read it it with Svidrigailovs role in mind. I hate to admit defeat, but alas I was wrong.
    Other than the possible rape of Dounia, Svid seems to be the catalyst to the redemption of Raskolnikov, and equally to Sonias salvation (she is still my favorite character). Svidrigailov pays the ultimate price for upholding Rodions theory. I found it easy to look through the spectacles of hatred towards him. The problem with that is those same glasses tend to filter out the truth behind his actions. damn it..........He may be the mahatma in this one. I still hate him.

  39. #39
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    Truth be told, FCHorn's interpretation is the rational and correct one. However, the beauty of literature (or music, art, etc) is that true interpretation is personal. As an anti-hero myself, I stubbornly (I know, adverb) remain.

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by FCHorn View Post
    He was already mired in the mediocrity of himself and beliefs and morality....he couldn't handle the mediocrity of himself knowing he could have been much better than the leech of society he was...he is not able to endure himself whilst Sonia is able to endure all and love without conditions....

    He understands all to well his failings and maybe does an honorable thing in which there may be no honor overall....
    Quote Originally Posted by jose_medina_de_jesus View Post
    Just finished a second go around with this one. this time I read it it with Svidrigailovs role in mind. I hate to admit defeat, but alas I was wrong.
    Other than the possible rape of Dounia, Svid seems to be the catalyst to the redemption of Raskolnikov, and equally to Sonias salvation (she is still my favorite character). Svidrigailov pays the ultimate price for upholding Rodions theory. I found it easy to look through the spectacles of hatred towards him. The problem with that is those same glasses tend to filter out the truth behind his actions. damn it..........He may be the mahatma in this one. I still hate him.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutTheCrackJack View Post
    Truth be told, FCHorn's interpretation is the rational and correct one. However, the beauty of literature (or music, art, etc) is that true interpretation is personal. As an anti-hero myself, I stubbornly (I know, adverb) remain.
    I dunno...I like where JMDJ is coming from...I could envision Dost. $#@!ing with Raskolnikov by having a lesser creature be more manly and offing himself just to show Rask. what a pussy he really is...and his philosophy to be utterly without religious morality...ie the philosophy of mankind sucks...

  41. #41
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    I dont know that there is a "correct" answer here.
    none of them are disputable.

    1. Sonia is the heroine. she represents purity and salvation to others, but is internally torn. I am not going to rant on about Sonia, as we have all read this. He contributions are well known.

    2.Svid- He crumbled, but it wasn't the pressure of living with what he had done. It was the fact that he couldn't posses what he desired (free will and all that).
    he realized that and completed rodions theory. He murdered a lecherous, wealthy woman. And proceed to bring light to otherwise darker lives.

    Through his generosity The orphans were cared for.Rodion was able to redeem his soul (at least in mans eyes), for, without Svids money, Sonia never makes the trip to Siberia or passes of consumption early on. Sonia fulfills her lifes meaning and truly becomes the embodiment of purity. Even Donia is saved, I do not believe that Svids Widow willed that money to Donia. Svid gave that to her to keep her from marrying a "grade a" Dbag, With selfish reasoning behind it. but, Svidrigailov is not a perfect man.
    Last edited by jose_medina_de_jesus; 04-23-2012 at 08:24 AM.

  42. #42
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    Dear theorists, philosophers and buggerers: how about contributing something to society? Pick up a Time Life book and re-wire your house. Then you can decide whether the ends justified the means, if you know what I'm saying, you bunch of gay homos.

  43. #43
    asshat jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus aka Old Freak Nasty jose_medina_de_jesus's Avatar
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